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2 hours ago, The ghost of squig said:

Try shooting a blue sky, Braw is macroblock hell even set to Q0 and 3:1. Braw has looked good with everything else I've shot, but I'll have to rely on my trusty 5DMk3 with magic lantern for anything with a blue sky in it.

Can't say i've ever seen macro blocking when shooting a blue sky but maybe I haven't been looking for it, here's 2 3:1 braw clips on my hard drive and they look good to be with a fairy aggressive grade. They might not be the best examples.

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7 hours ago, Emanuel said:

That's new... Really. I've never seen anything like that. It is more about any potential artifacts of aliasing or moiré : ) hardly to be found in motion to be sincere. cDNG is also more detailed and better IQ overall : -)

I find it amazing it's been over a year and nobody mentioned it, I noticed it the first day I got the camera. I'm fine with the detail of Braw, but the macroblocking is a worry.

5 hours ago, MeanRevert said:

There's a whole thread about that Blue Sky thing on the BMD forum:

 

https://forum.blackmagicdesign.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=93737

Thanks for the link.

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5 hours ago, JordanWright said:

Can't say i've ever seen macro blocking when shooting a blue sky but maybe I haven't been looking for it, here's 2 3:1 braw clips on my hard drive and they look good to be with a fairy aggressive grade. They might not be the best examples.

Those examples look OK, but it's only been a problem with clear blue skies. I did a test with the P4K Braw, X-T3 HEVC 10bit, and 5DMk3 magic lantern 14bit lossless, graded in Resolve and exported to ProRes4444, only the P4K shot has the macroblocking in both 3:1 and Q0 at varying exposure levels. It may not look so bad on a 27" screen, but I wouldn't want to risk it on a 40 foot screen. These are screenshots taken from the ProRes4444 file.

Pocket 4K

t52Ox5Y.jpg

X-T3

q5ooP1T.jpg

5DMk3

MKMI7mu.jpg

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3 hours ago, The ghost of squig said:

I find it amazing it's been over a year and nobody mentioned it, I noticed it the first day I got the camera. I'm fine with the detail of Braw, but the macroblocking is a worry.

Thanks for the link.

I believe this will depend on our grading too.

As far I've seen posted cDNG is even worse with Blackmagic cameras but should it be going lossless?

ProRes 422 HQ should be clean, at least. If not, there's nothing related to codec or RAW implementation.

 

It's surely not good news...

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47 minutes ago, Emanuel said:

I believe this will depend on our grading too.

As far I've seen posted cDNG is even worse with Blackmagic cameras but should it be going lossless?

ProRes 422 HQ should be clean, at least. If not, there's nothing related to codec or RAW implementation.

 

It's surely not good news...

It's definitely compression artifacts. Grading accentuates it, but even ungraded it's noticeable. Any large monochromatic areas could be problematic. I haven't tested ProRes, in my experience ProRes is less prone to macroblocking like that, but I'll do a test anyway. I don't remember having any macroblocking issues with CDNG 3:1 on the BMMCC, but I didn't use it much. Lossless would definitely solve the problem, adjusting the variable compression algorithm might help too.

This is how it looks rendered out to ProRes4444. Braw up first, followed by the X-T3 and 5DMk3 raw: https://drive.google.com/open?id=1bTrb4QlNxZRQW2dZPMQ5_7U5b0jMxrQ5

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6 minutes ago, The ghost of squig said:

It's definitely compression artifacts. Grading accentuates it, but even ungraded it's noticeable. Any large monochromatic areas could be problematic. I haven't tested ProRes, in my experience ProRes is less prone to macroblocking like that, but I'll do a test anyway. I don't remember having any macroblocking issues with CDNG 3:1 on the BMMCC, but I didn't use it much. Lossless would definitely solve the problem, adjusting the variable compression algorithm might help too.

This is how it looks rendered out to ProRes4444. Braw up first, followed by the X-T3 and 5DMk3 raw: https://drive.google.com/open?id=1bTrb4QlNxZRQW2dZPMQ5_7U5b0jMxrQ5

In that thread above-posted someone claims cDNG is the worst sample when some other notices that's make little sense from lossless... ProRes is reported as identical.

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10 minutes ago, Emanuel said:

In that thread above-posted someone claims cDNG is the worst sample when some other notices that's make little sense from lossless... ProRes is reported as identical.

Anyone with the OG Pocket have any issues with compressed CDNG or ProRes macroblocking?

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41 minutes ago, The ghost of squig said:

Anyone with the OG Pocket have any issues with compressed CDNG or ProRes macroblocking?

No idea but there, someone hints this is a known issue with raw on Blackmagic cameras...

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I see no Macroblocking on any of them if I expand them, probably not a fair judgement. But I see that the Canon 5D mk III is killing it on DR if they are all exposed the same? But your links are hard, to impossible to open on my computer? Appreciate your work on the comparisons.

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The Pocket 4k and XT3 look really similar in that test. The 5D stands out with more contrast.

Zooming in the Pocket shadows look the least pleasing, less color and more noise. The XT3 is second being cleaner, a bit more color but its still muted. The 5D isn't as clean as the XT3 but the color is more vibrant. 

The 5D is definitely tempting me right now. But I am unsure how reliable Magic lantern is and of course you don't get 4k 60p or 120fps. 

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44 minutes ago, thebrothersthre3 said:

The Pocket 4k and XT3 look really similar in that test. The 5D stands out with more contrast.

Zooming in the Pocket shadows look the least pleasing, less color and more noise. The XT3 is second being cleaner, a bit more color but its still muted. The 5D isn't as clean as the XT3 but the color is more vibrant. 

The 5D is definitely tempting me right now. But I am unsure how reliable Magic lantern is and of course you don't get 4k 60p or 120fps. 

I don’t want to clog up this thread praising the 5D3... most people probably know my feelings about it. But I have never had any glitches with ML Raw on the 5D3. Also, even though 4K(ish) 24p is possible with the 5D3, I don’t really consider it usable... you may be able to get some static wide shots at infinity but for the most part, don’t count on it.

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48 minutes ago, mercer said:

I don’t want to clog up this thread praising the 5D3... most people probably know my feelings about it. But I have never had any glitches with ML Raw on the 5D3. Also, even though 4K(ish) 24p is possible with the 5D3, I don’t really consider it usable... you may be able to get some static wide shots at infinity but for the most part, don’t count on it.

Yeah I just can't risk it with weddings or anything really haha. 1080p RAW is perfectly fine for me. I can't really handle a 4K uncompressed RAW workflow. 

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1080p raw is lovely... You can even risk to not miss the 4K outcome. Really : -)

Well, if they also thought about YouTubbers... why not? ; ) It doesn't bother me at all though. The camera monitor's angle is fine designed, that is, very well thought to let it clear.

@CaptainHook I am already used to your coward and childish downvotes... When people lack perspective, insist to be blind, focus on a counterproductive absence of arguments or yet simply entering in denial... it is just easier the disservice.

You should limit yourself to a skillful approach instead, commenting or trying to overcome the issues your baby .braw boy brings to whom have effectively paid your pay off as part of the brand staff.

Rather than making even louder the shortcomings of such useful people of technology. Unique of a kind to be straightforward with the truth all the way. My fav acquisition device ever. The same way I am genuine to post that, I don't refrain myself to deal with the negative side. No typical fanboy attitude over there ; ) I guess Grant must have more care to recruit their personnel from kindergarten next turn.

Let's be pretty honest here, OK? For some reason people appreciate a forum as brand agnostic as this one : -)

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7 hours ago, webrunner5 said:

I see no Macroblocking on any of them if I expand them, probably not a fair judgement. But I see that the Canon 5D mk III is killing it on DR if they are all exposed the same? But your links are hard, to impossible to open on my computer? Appreciate your work on the comparisons.

I recorded all 3 at different exposure levels, the ones you can see were the optimum exposures for DR. The 5DMk3 CDNG raw format gives it the edge in the grade.

Have you tried dragging and dropping the images?

6 hours ago, mercer said:

Yeah, it’s pretty amazing the fine detail the 5D3 is picking up. If this was just a comparison between the P4K and the X-T3, I’d have no idea the house was stucco. 

Not bad considering the MK3 is 1080p and the other two are 4K.

5 hours ago, thebrothersthre3 said:

The Pocket 4k and XT3 look really similar in that test. The 5D stands out with more contrast.

Zooming in the Pocket shadows look the least pleasing, less color and more noise. The XT3 is second being cleaner, a bit more color but its still muted. The 5D isn't as clean as the XT3 but the color is more vibrant. 

The 5D is definitely tempting me right now. But I am unsure how reliable Magic lantern is and of course you don't get 4k 60p or 120fps. 

One of the things I don't like about the X-T3 is it loses chroma in the shadows, that's something the 5D has always handled better than every other camera I've tested over the years. I recently filmed 3 jobs exclusively with the 5D over 3 weeks with a nightly build; it only crashed once, and I only lost one frame. The 5D upscales to 4K nicely.

4 hours ago, mercer said:

I don’t want to clog up this thread praising the 5D3... most people probably know my feelings about it. But I have never had any glitches with ML Raw on the 5D3. Also, even though 4K(ish) 24p is possible with the 5D3, I don’t really consider it usable... you may be able to get some static wide shots at infinity but for the most part, don’t count on it.

We should be doing this in my comparison thread. My bad.

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4 hours ago, Emanuel said:

1080p raw is lovely... You can even risk to not miss the 4K outcome. Really : -)

Well, if they also thought about YouTubbers... why not? ; ) It doesn't bother me at all though. The camera monitor's angle is fine designed, that is, very well thought to let it clear.

@CaptainHook I am already used to your coward and childish downvotes... When people lack perspective, insist to be blind, focus on a counterproductive absence of arguments or yet simply entering in denial... it is just easier the disservice.

You should limit yourself to a skillful approach instead, commenting or trying to overcome the issues your baby .braw boy brings to whom have effectively paid your pay off as part of the brand staff.

Rather than making even louder the shortcomings of such useful people of technology. Unique of a kind to be straightforward with the truth all the way. My fav acquisition device ever. The same way I am genuine to post that, I don't refrain myself to deal with the negative side. No typical fanboy attitude over there ; ) I guess Grant must have more care to recruit their personnel from kindergarten next turn.

Let's be pretty honest here, OK? For some reason people appreciate a forum as brand agnostic as this one : -)

Emanuel, you are over stepping the mark a bit here, to be honest.

I don't want you harassing actual Blackmagic Design staff on my forum.

Also when it comes to creating "official topics" and such like compilations of Blackmagic stuff you are stepping on my toes as moderator... Don't do it.

I'd like us to keep the Blackmagic 4K Pocket Cinema Camera in one thread for now and there is no need to start reposting and cutting and pasting content into your own threads.

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1 hour ago, Andrew Reid said:

Emanuel, you are over stepping the mark a bit here, to be honest.

I don't want you harassing actual Blackmagic Design staff on my forum.

Also when it comes to creating "official topics" and such like compilations of Blackmagic stuff you are stepping on my toes as moderator... Don't do it.

I'd like us to keep the Blackmagic 4K Pocket Cinema Camera in one thread for now and there is no need to start reposting and cutting and pasting content into your own threads.

No problem, it is your forum. I show to you my personal apologies then. This is your home. I firmly believe we should all respect each other, the truth and the home of each other too. Not to him, anyways. I am done with this guy. There's no personal agenda over here, mine or from him, I believe or I'd already have invited him to go on private mode.

He pops here to downvote any negative remark he doesn't like towards his product because of his work too committed with results we would all love to see opposed. He did the same with Dennis (aka @deezid) to intoxicating reality distorting the facts to unfit his personal bubble. Embarrassing his remarks trying to put them to rest instead. In a line, good try to silence them with variable success but without adding any helpful enlightenment to whom has invested resources on that table. Moreover, denying reality can only address readers and customers/users to misleading.

 

On the compilation thread organized for a few weeks now, we can even salute this year-long thread with a million views as you well know I've just recently addressed to you. And emailed to Grant Petty BTW (forwarded to you too). Your milestone. On a product manufactured by the same guys who I am client for years but have underestimated your forum as most part of us well know. Without mention, as you and everyone here should remind against my voice, as well. I tend to put it where and when I think it is fair. Brand agnostic locations are really not well seen under a strict business viewpoint. Ours here, your readers and contributors, is a different one, though.

However, 414 pages (!) can never help anyone to find the best information. I could only leave it as my personal bookmarks saved in a device of my own. Or share it with this community. In a way to easily have quick access to it in the most effective and helpful method by all. I am not inventing anything. Not lies spread with undercover little mouse clicks. LOL

Just compiling relevant information crucial to any Blackmagic daily user. They are not "my threads"... This is only a small contribution of mine in your forum. Our threads as you wish then ; ) In behalf of this community you've helped to created. Something you know I respect. As much as the fact you put your keyboard where you see to fit. One of the reasons I am here. The same when some move comes useful. Please don't expect something different from reason or who I am : -)

 

EDIT -- Above-posted on my remark and quote of mine up there, I stand corrected, it is "such useful piece of technology" and not "such useful people of technology", obviously.

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14 hours ago, The ghost of squig said:

Those examples look OK, but it's only been a problem with clear blue skies. I did a test with the P4K Braw, X-T3 HEVC 10bit, and 5DMk3 magic lantern 14bit lossless, graded in Resolve and exported to ProRes4444, only the P4K shot has the macroblocking in both 3:1 and Q0 at varying exposure levels. It may not look so bad on a 27" screen, but I wouldn't want to risk it on a 40 foot screen. These are screenshots taken from the ProRes4444 file.

Pocket 4K

t52Ox5Y.jpg

 

These blotches exist in both ProRes and Braw footage from the camera and are caused by its internal noise reduction - which cannot be applied to cDNG which is therefore not affected.
I really hope BMD adds a setting allowing spatial noise filtering to be turned off. In this example the grain would become smaller at least and less blocky.

The X-T3 uses strong temporal noise filtering which causes all kinds of other problems such as ghosting and smearing - which is quite a big issue on other cameras as well - such as the A73 and E2 and even GoPros. But in images with no movement it does wonders indeed...

The 5D MKIII has a way bigger sensor with large pixels which is the reason it looks as clean.

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