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Blackmagic Pocket Cinema Camera 4K

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3 hours ago, The ghost of squig said:

We should be doing this in my comparison thread. My bad.

Hope you care and as Dennis and Glenn hinted, let's truly face it: movement and static shots is apples to oranges.

Nothing clean and good 1080p won't resolve, no matter how hyped 4K is.

We instead, we're not here for selling hotdogs... LOL ; -)

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EOSHD Pro Color for Sony cameras EOSHD Pro LOG for Sony CamerasEOSHD C-LOG and Film Profiles for All Canon DSLRs

Just throwing this out there.

yesterday I rented and watched Venom. I noticed some red clipping in the night chase scene. More than once. None of the other colors. Reminded me of the P4K. Was shot on Arri and Red. Not sure if that was a fault of the camera or delivery. 

Recently saw a black hole in a major studio production. Can’t remember which it was. It was super brief. Probably no one else noticed.

C35CACC1-A32E-4806-956C-084321EB20A5.jpeg

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About the blue skies thing, @CaptainHook said this over on the BMD forum:

Hi,

When evaluating in Resolve please make sure your timeline is the same resolution as the source files, or that you don't have optimized playback enabled. If you do and the timeline is half the resolution (or smaller) of the source files then Resolve will get the SDK to use a lower quality decode even if the clip settings are set to highest quality (full res). This should not affect renders, but if you zoom into the UI viewer you will only be zooming into a lower quality decode.

Optimized playback settings are in preferences > user settings > playback performance in Resolve 16 (notice Optimized Decode is enabled when set to automatic mode).

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"This should not affect renders"

Looks like I won't be filming any blue skies with my Pocket 4K, which is a shame because we get the occasional blue sky in Australia.

5 hours ago, deezid said:

These blotches exist in both ProRes and Braw footage from the camera and are caused by its internal noise reduction - which cannot be applied to cDNG which is therefore not affected.

It's a good thing I got one of the new not defective in any way cameras that can't be downgraded to CDNG then. I didn't pre-order because this time I wanted to wait until all the bugs were fixed 😭🙄

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1 hour ago, Mattias Burling said:

Never heard of it.

Me neither. Until to have read it reported here:

https://forum.blackmagicdesign.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=93737#p521893

I was expecting any solid contradictory there from BMD staff included, no one dropped a word on topic to oppose it anyway...

 

53 minutes ago, The ghost of squig said:

"This should not affect renders"

Looks like I won't be filming any blue skies with my Pocket 4K, which is a shame because we get the occasional blue sky in Australia.

It's a good thing I got one of the new not defective in any way cameras that can't be downgraded to CDNG then. I didn't pre-order because this time I wanted to wait until all the bugs were fixed 😭🙄

That's not what they say there in that thread... They say that's even worse, unfortunately.

 

1 hour ago, Anaconda_ said:

About the blue skies thing, @CaptainHook said this over on the BMD forum:

Hi,

When evaluating in Resolve please make sure your timeline is the same resolution as the source files, or that you don't have optimized playback enabled. If you do and the timeline is half the resolution (or smaller) of the source files then Resolve will get the SDK to use a lower quality decode even if the clip settings are set to highest quality (full res). This should not affect renders, but if you zoom into the UI viewer you will only be zooming into a lower quality decode.

Optimized playback settings are in preferences > user settings > playback performance in Resolve 16 (notice Optimized Decode is enabled when set to automatic mode).

Posted a couple of hours ago... Will this be really effective?

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20 minutes ago, Emanuel said:

Me neither. Until to have read it reported here:

https://forum.blackmagicdesign.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=93737#p521893

I was expecting any solid contradictory there from BMD staff included, no one dropped a word on topic to oppose it anyway...

That link only made me more certain that it's a made up problem. Don't you have a link to anything showing that it is a "well known" or at least "known" issue with cDNG in the BMCC and original BMPCC? 

That thread is about Braw so it's not a good example, since none of the cameras shoot it. Also if it's well known there should be plenty of threads and videos.

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5 minutes ago, Emanuel said:

Will this be effective?

Nope. Like @deezid said: "I really hope BMD adds a setting allowing spatial noise filtering to be turned off. In this example the grain would become smaller at least and less blocky."

Otherwise I can see a Z6 with ProRes raw landing on my desk sometime soon.

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7 minutes ago, Mattias Burling said:

That link only made me more certain that it's a made up problem. Don't you have a link to anything showing that it is a "well known" or at least "known" issue with cDNG? 

That thread is about Braw so it's not a good example. Also if it's well known there should be plenty of threads and videos.

I understand your point and tend to concur. I just didn't do any test. And I found worrying some other people to involve cDNG too. Without mention, I am not a frequent user of BMD forums so I am not certain some other people hadn't noticed yet.

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@The ghost of squig - What he's saying, is the macro blocking in blue skies is only present if you have your project set up incorrectly, and the blocking you see in Resolve won't be present in your final export. It sounds to me similar to turning on Proxies, the software plays a lesser quality version of the file for smooth playback while editing... Before you rule out shooting blue skies, why don't you specifically shoot them, adjust your settings to fit your file and then do your own tests. 

1 hour ago, Emanuel said:

Posted a couple of hours ago... Will this be really effective?

I only copied the relevant part, but he also said it's nothing new, suggesting it's something people may be overlooking when posting their grabs... I've not had a chance to really test it, but shot a lot over the weekend where it was way too hot here, so going to double check and see how it works for me. Personally though, I've never been bothered by any macro blocking, so I'm the wrong person to be testing and pixel peeping. 

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6 minutes ago, Anaconda_ said:

@The ghost of squig - What he's saying, is the macro blocking in blue skies is only present if you have your project set up incorrectly, and the blocking you see in Resolve won't be present in your final export. It sounds to me similar to turning on Proxies, the software plays a lesser quality version of the file for smooth playback while editing... Before you rule out shooting blue skies, why don't you specifically shoot them, adjust your settings to fit your file and then do your own tests.

The screenshots I posted are from the final export.

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I haven't yet updated my Blackmagic Pocket 4K to BRAW as I wanted to keep hold of Cinema DNG.

I respect the BRAWly codec but I am kind of in love with the image I get from CDNG and not just on Blackmagic cameras... It is very filmic.

Grain and texture is too often gone on modern, efficient codecs. I want to dive in and see that, it makes me feel like I am dealing with a real analogue image not a digital fake.

In fact nothing helps banding in a blue sky more than giving the codec something to do in plain areas like that... Fine grain gives it something to hang onto, and it even helps dither subtle tones together.

I had 10bit banding before on the FS5 before Sony did a firmware update... Despite their PR wishy washy meetings with me where they forced some poor old programmers to sit in a room with me, I really don't think they fixed the codec... Rather, they fixed the inter-frame noise reduction. Does the Blackmagic Pocket 4K have inter-frame noise reduction going on in BRAW? If so, this might explain the macro blocking.

PS - I understand the legal reasons for Blackmagic not wanting to continue with CDNG and fully support their reasoning behind BRAW and the benefits of a BRAW workflow (although I am perfectly happy with ProRes for fast editing to be honest)... So I can appreciate why it's never coming back, but does the Pocket 4K have the ability to swap firmware versions between new and old or can it only go one way and once you lose CDNG can you never get it back?

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54 minutes ago, Andrew Reid said:

does the Pocket 4K have the ability to swap firmware versions between new and old or can it only go one way and once you lose CDNG can you never get it back?

On your camera you can switch back to the old firmware

On newer models that came with the BRAW installed you cannot switch back.

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36 minutes ago, Andrew Reid said:

PS - I understand the legal reasons for Blackmagic not wanting to continue with CDNG and fully support their reasoning behind BRAW and the benefits of a BRAW workflow (although I am perfectly happy with ProRes for fast editing to be honest)... So I can appreciate why it's never coming back, but does the Pocket 4K have the ability to swap firmware versions between new and old or can it only go one way and once you lose CDNG can you never get it back?

Apparently cameras with CDNG can be downgraded back to CDNG, and cameras like mine that come with 6.21 can't be downgraded. Would I want to risk upgrading to Braw if I had a CDNG camera? Probably not. I think it was poor form from BMD not being upfront about the newer cameras not being backwards compatible with the CDNG firmware. If it weren't for this noise reduction/macroblocking issue I'd be content with Braw, but right now I'm thinking where else is it going to show up besides blue skies?

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26 minutes ago, Lars Steenhoff said:

On newer models that came with the BRAW installed you cannot switch back.

The problem with my unit indeed.
Got a nicer display though with accurate colors...

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I returned the the Blackmagic Pocket 4K I purchased as it could not be reverted to the firmware version with BRAW. I purchased an USRA Mini Pro G1 instead as it can do Cinema DNG where the the USRS G2 can not and the G1 was a so much cheaper used at the time.  I anticipate that the USRA Mini Pro G1 and the BM Pocket 4K with the hardware revision that can do Cinema DNG will hold their value and be in demand for some time to come.

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5 minutes ago, majoraxis said:

I returned the the Blackmagic Pocket 4K I purchased as it could not be reverted to the firmware version with BRAW. I purchased an USRA Mini Pro G1 instead as it can do Cinema DNG where the the USRS G2 can not and the G1 was a so much cheaper used at the time.  I anticipate that the USRA Mini Pro G1 and the BM Pocket 4K with the hardware revision that can do Cinema DNG will hold their value and be in demand for some time to come.

Does the Ursa Mini Pro G1 come with the blue sky pixelation feature? Believe me, you're going to want to have that.

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1 hour ago, The ghost of squig said:

I had a look at one of the CDNG blue sky examples on the BMD forum, it looks just as bad as Braw.

I told you. It really puzzles me. Why? We'd need they may address the issue. It's rather disappointing. Without mention to lack some objectiveness to clarify it.

I also can't be glad why a few models are cDNG capable, others don't. As far as reported because of a new display and its firmware, but this camera was announced with the possibility to hold cDNG when it is not even consensual braw is wide accepted as raw format. Despite its usefulness, ratio IQ and value. So we have now two distinct cameras as matter of fact? A Mark II or better to call it Minus Mark I too...? Is this acceptable? Ethical? Many fair doubts and complaints by customers and adopters can be raised for the subject matter. Who can blame such claim?

 

 

3 hours ago, Andrew Reid said:

I haven't yet updated my Blackmagic Pocket 4K to BRAW as I wanted to keep hold of Cinema DNG.

I respect the BRAWly codec but I am kind of in love with the image I get from CDNG and not just on Blackmagic cameras... It is very filmic.

Grain and texture is too often gone on modern, efficient codecs. I want to dive in and see that, it makes me feel like I am dealing with a real analogue image not a digital fake.

In fact nothing helps banding in a blue sky more than giving the codec something to do in plain areas like that... Fine grain gives it something to hang onto, and it even helps dither subtle tones together.

I had 10bit banding before on the FS5 before Sony did a firmware update... Despite their PR wishy washy meetings with me where they forced some poor old programmers to sit in a room with me, I really don't think they fixed the codec... Rather, they fixed the inter-frame noise reduction. Does the Blackmagic Pocket 4K have inter-frame noise reduction going on in BRAW? If so, this might explain the macro blocking.

PS - I understand the legal reasons for Blackmagic not wanting to continue with CDNG and fully support their reasoning behind BRAW and the benefits of a BRAW workflow (although I am perfectly happy with ProRes for fast editing to be honest)... So I can appreciate why it's never coming back, but does the Pocket 4K have the ability to swap firmware versions between new and old or can it only go one way and once you lose CDNG can you never get it back?

 

This was posted by majoraxis in your forum 15 pages back one month and a half ago:

 

You can also find more information here:

https://forum.blackmagicdesign.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=90870

 

Unfortunately, this is effectively not a minor downgrade, hence the major disappointment not only pointed by me but many others...

 

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"I doubt Cinema DNG by itself was the legal issue, but maybe the combination of Cinema DNG technology and the camera processing for it infringed one of RED’s patents"

since then blackmagic  also updated the ursa mini g2 firmware and cinema dng was not removed in the g2 so this legal issue seems to be pure BS. they most likely removed if from the cheap bmpcc4k either to harmonize their cinema camera line in terms of specs/price ratio or they want to push usage of BRAW over cinema dng. why can't they just give the real explanation so we can have an idea of their strategy and make informed choices in term of what software to learn or what camera to buy.

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