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Blackmagic Pocket Cinema Camera 4K

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21 hours ago, mercer said:

I read the description of the Laforet video and I’m glad to hear that BM fixed the highlight rolloff issue that a lot of people complained about in the earlier models. 

From the Laforet Youtube video description: “What’s impressive about this package is the micro four thirds sensor. This sensor has an incredible roll off of highlights that I seldom see which really opens up your ability to capture an incredible dynamic range, from the deep shadows to extremely high highlights all the way to the sunlight”.

I wonder which Blackmagic Camera version update this was shot with to allow the sensor to display its "incredible roll off of highlights".  Were they shooting 6.1 with Cinema DNG? Were they shooting 6.3 or 6.4 and Blackmagic has silently rolled in better highlight response or was it there the whole time and the newest Resolve 16.4 beta or some future release beta unlocks the sensor "incredible roll off of highlight"potential with the way it process BRAW.

At 4:54 in this video, it illustrates and describes the highlight issue.

If Blackmagic has some how improved the highlight rolloff characteristics with pocket 4k generated video files,  it would be great to know what combination of Pocket 4k hardware version, Blackmagic Camera version update , recording format and recording format post processing to unleash this potential.

If nothing has changed on Blackmagic's side, maybe Laforet could share his recording technique to achieve incredible highlight rolloff with the Pocket 4k because this guy does beautiful work, so I am hoping he knows something I don't know and will be willing to share his knowledge with the community, or that he will tell Blackmagic and they can share it with the community.

Hopefully someone will clarify how this was made a reality.

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14 hours ago, MurtlandPhoto said:

Honestly, I think it's because many BM users are whiny and entitled. Announcements would get hyped up beyond reason and ultimately people would be underwhelmed by the actual improvements. Look at what happened with some of the GH5 AF improvement announcements: people jumped the gun and starting declaring that it would be Canon Dual Pixel level performance immediately, only to be disappointed when the firmware was actually released. Better to just surprise people.

I say this as a BM user and lover.

 

13 hours ago, MeanRevert said:

 

Hmmm.. that doesn't sound like a very good reason.  It would seem to me that drumming up some excitement would greatly outweigh any potential disappointments.

I always thought it was a bandwidth issue as it seems like BM is a small shop and can only devote their engineering resources towards a few projects at once. That's just guessing, though.

i doubt their too concerned about us. We hit about 380 pages before the bmp4k even shipped.if they were interested in excitement you'd see more action from captain hook or some other person from bm. Besides bm have their own forum, surely they would consult with the party faithful before us or another forum Not that i'm complaining its nice to see the occasional post from bm with what ever they feel pertinent about  and correcting the odd post thats got incorrect information in it, which i think is also nice. They sprang the no more dng files with no warning. i expect that will continue, no idea how deep the rabbit warren is but its bm who have theirs hands on the wheel so buckle up and enjoy the ride or get a sony 🙄

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On 6/13/2019 at 3:25 PM, mercer said:

I read the description of the Laforet video and I’m glad to hear that BM fixed the highlight rolloff issue that a lot of people complained about in the earlier models. 

Was there an official update that addressed highlight roll off? I hadn’t seen that. I’ve been waiting all this time for @Sage to help me with that. 😜

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22 hours ago, Jonesy Jones said:

Was there an official update that addressed highlight roll off? I hadn’t seen that. I’ve been waiting all this time for @Sage to help me with that. 😜

The firmware update from the 27 may didn’t mention any upgrades for the P4K...maybe it was a silent fix? Haven’t tried upgrading yet

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2 hours ago, dslnc said:

The firmware update from the 27 may didn’t mention any upgrades for the P4K...maybe it was a silent fix? Haven’t tried upgrading yet

I updated all three of my cameras last night, using the 6.4 updater. The cameras now show a firmware version of 6.2.1, which is the last update on the BM site that mentions the P4K.

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3 hours ago, drm said:

I updated all three of my cameras last night, using the 6.4 updater. The cameras now show a firmware version of 6.2.1, which is the last update on the BM site that mentions the P4K.

Don't they mention what's changed?

I hate those..Sony does them all the time also. Fuji is very respectful in that matter, very explainable.

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On 6/15/2019 at 8:47 AM, Jonesy Jones said:

Was there an official update that addressed highlight roll off? I hadn’t seen that. I’ve been waiting all this time for @Sage to help me with that. 😜

Not from BM but a fairly interesting look at iso DR and overexposure with recovery of highlights.

 

 

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On 6/14/2019 at 1:18 PM, majoraxis said:

From the Laforet Youtube video description: “What’s impressive about this package is the micro four thirds sensor. This sensor has an incredible roll off of highlights that I seldom see which really opens up your ability to capture an incredible dynamic range, from the deep shadows to extremely high highlights all the way to the sunlight”.

I wonder which Blackmagic Camera version update this was shot with to allow the sensor to display its "incredible roll off of highlights".  Were they shooting 6.1 with Cinema DNG? Were they shooting 6.3 or 6.4 and Blackmagic has silently rolled in better highlight response or was it there the whole time and the newest Resolve 16.4 beta or some future release beta unlocks the sensor "incredible roll off of highlight"potential with the way it process BRAW.

At 4:54 in this video, it illustrates and describes the highlight issue.

If Blackmagic has some how improved the highlight rolloff characteristics with pocket 4k generated video files,  it would be great to know what combination of Pocket 4k hardware version, Blackmagic Camera version update , recording format and recording format post processing to unleash this potential.

If nothing has changed on Blackmagic's side, maybe Laforet could share his recording technique to achieve incredible highlight rolloff with the Pocket 4k because this guy does beautiful work, so I am hoping he knows something I don't know and will be willing to share his knowledge with the community, or that he will tell Blackmagic and they can share it with the community.

Hopefully someone will clarify how this was made a reality.

I haven't used this camera yet (though the price is right), but I found this interesting:

dualISO_diagram3.jpg

At 400 ISO ("native"), you get four stops of highlight dynamic range. That's not bad, but it's not great. 

But you can imagine how someone shooting at 800 ISO would be happy with five stops over and someone shooting at 100 ISO would be very disappointed with two.

But the kids these days expose by histogram and not meter so who even knows anymore.

Besides that, rolloff has a subjective quality. The F5 has a pretty good over at 2000 ISO (six stops, I believe), but the original SLOG 2 implementation had chroma clipping and sharpening that look horrible.

I would try sticking to 800 ISO for challenging scenes if you can tolerate the noise level and see if that helps. I think the Alexa Mini has something like +7.8 stops at native 800 ISO (and even more at 1600 ISO) so that's insane.

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That is an old chart ... here is a screen capture of the updated DR with BRAW ....

 

474502808_BRAWDR.thumb.jpg.30b0c10254ba6ee9a31adc5004c141fc.jpg

ISO 640 may be a sweet spot for +6.1 stops ... and you have highlight recovery available if you do not blow the highlights.

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47 minutes ago, docmoore said:

That is an old chart ... here is a screen capture of the updated DR with BRAW ....

 

474502808_BRAWDR.thumb.jpg.30b0c10254ba6ee9a31adc5004c141fc.jpg

ISO 640 may be a sweet spot for +6.1 stops ... and you have highlight recovery available if you do not blow the highlights.

Is that accurate? Where'd you find it?

That's a huge improvement. Really really good numbers, competitive (in practice, at least–shadows might be a little worse muddier) with the better cinema cameras available. 

Maybe that explains the difference. Those numbers indicate excellent highlight dynamic range. The early ones don't.

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10 hours ago, HockeyFan12 said:

Is that accurate? Where'd you find it?

That's a huge improvement. Really really good numbers, competitive (in practice, at least–shadows might be a little worse muddier) with the better cinema cameras available. 

Maybe that explains the difference. Those numbers indicate excellent highlight dynamic range. The early ones don't.

BlackmagicPocketCinemaCamera4KManual.pdf

Download PDF on this support page middle column fourth choice:

https://www.blackmagicdesign.com/support/

Page 42

 

Regards,

Bob

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3 hours ago, docmoore said:

BlackmagicPocketCinemaCamera4KManual.pdf

Download PDF on this support page middle column fourth choice:

https://www.blackmagicdesign.com/support/

Page 42

 

Regards,

Bob

Thanks. If we take 400 ISO as the BMPCC 4k base ISO, the revised numbers put base ISO over (highlight dynamic range) at +5.5. That's just behind the newer Reds at their base 800 ISO (numbers are unpublished, but similar to UMP 4.6k in practice), URSA Mini Pro 4.6k (+5.8, I think), etc. and just ahead of the C300 Mk I (+5.3). C300 Mk II is +6.3, guessing Varicam and Venice are around +6.5. Alexa is +7.4 to +7.8 depending on model... 

Or if you shoot at 640 ISO (+6.1) or 800 ISO (+6.5) then you've got highlight dynamic range competitive with big name cinema cameras. But you can also push other cameras a stop. Apparently Panavision rates the Red at 1600 ISO to get an extra stop. So then it's around +6.5, too, with more resolution.

Did braw also improve the highlights on the 4.6k? Couldn't find a manual for that.

1 hour ago, webrunner5 said:

There is no way in hell that camera has 10.7 stops of DR @ 25,600 ISO. If it had 8 it would be amazing.

I agree. The "under" part usually seems exaggerated, especially at high ISO. Canon claims something like 15 stops at 100,000 ISO and it's not even close. 

But the original specs on the BMPCC 4k indicate highlight dynamic range close to a 5D Mark III or a GH4 (+4 stops over 18% gray) and the new numbers are closer to high end cinema cameras. Maybe that explains the debate about highlight detail, and if the new numbers are accurate, it's pretty darned good...

Of course it also depends on how good the shadows look. I think the F5 and A7S both have +6 over at base, but their shadows are so bad in SLOG 2 you need to overexpose them by a stop. So it's less in practice. 

@docmoore Do you know if the revised over/under is only for braw or is that for ProRes, too?

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The ProAV Closer Look at Overexposure video ... linked above ... looks at both braw and Prores and they assume there is almost a stop of improvement

with the braw over the Prores ... but that was at +4 overexposure ... in the ability to claw back highlights.

In spite of the DR of the camera ... one really needs to expose so that nothing gets blown in the highlights ... when it goes it is ugly. Not the most gentle of

rolloffs. Zebras at 90 and watch false color for anything you want to be usable.

It is much better than first look would suggest ... but you have to rigorously control exposure.

 

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1 hour ago, docmoore said:

The ProAV Closer Look at Overexposure video ... linked above ... looks at both braw and Prores and they assume there is almost a stop of improvement

with the braw over the Prores ... but that was at +4 overexposure ... in the ability to claw back highlights.

In spite of the DR of the camera ... one really needs to expose so that nothing gets blown in the highlights ... when it goes it is ugly. Not the most gentle of

rolloffs. Zebras at 90 and watch false color for anything you want to be usable.

It is much better than first look would suggest ... but you have to rigorously control exposure.

 

If I'm not mistaken that video is looking at Cinema DNG and ProRes, not at braw. They also show a graphic of the old chart that I posted, not the new one you found in the new manual.

The Cinema DNG highlight recovery looks okay, not great and not bad, but if braw is 1.5 stops better than that... well... that's really good. 

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You are correct ... the video is prior to the braw update. I assume that highlight recovery would be as effective as that of the Cinema DNG but that would

need to be demonstrated. Working with the raw files takes a bit of experience to find a decent balance that appears natural in high contrast landscapes.

Controlled lighting yields wonderful files ... great color and beautiful range of tones.

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