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Andrew Reid

Canon EOS R5 / R6 overheating discussion all in one place

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23 minutes ago, Andrew Reid said:

Yes got to respect Gerald. This is how I would have tested it as well. While nearly everyone else is failing to test it or covering up the results, he is actually shooting some intensive real-world use and getting to the point.

Yeah Gerald is pretty much the only person with a unit who is bothering to test it properly. Baffling really. Certainly stands out as one of the most comprehensive, less bullshitty reviewers. 

What I’m interested to hear is how the camera performs with constant short bursts of recording with 4k60fps and 4k120 over an hour period with a 15-20 break in between each hour. That’s how a lot of commercial and music video shoots go these day’s. 

Also it seems that for professional use, you will have to use a Ninja V and transcode 4k120 to ProRes in post. If the Titla cage works, it might be a Frankenbeast (that may at some point turn into a hellhound at any moments notice). 

Depends if... with these “workarounds”, the pros of the R5 outweigh the negatives. But if you think more about this, it’s a bit silly. It’s 2020. Within a year, Panasonic might blow this offering out of the water. 

 

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1 minute ago, A_Urquhart said:

There is surely no way that any self respecting  camera manufacturer would get people excited about 8K AND purposely cripple the camera by allowing it to overheat.

This would just give people the idea that you don't know how to engineer a product. 

Cripple it by leaving out the high end features, don't cripple it by making yourself look incompetent!

 

I think a cock up of epic proportions has happened somewhere along the way at Canon, this surely can't be deliberate.

 

No one is forcing them to release this camera. No one forced them to not have a fan or some other form of active cooling. Those were deliberate choices. 

They absolutely, 100% intentionally are releasing a camera that they know has serious overheating problems. 

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4 minutes ago, A_Urquhart said:

There is surely no way that any self respecting  camera manufacturer would get people excited about 8K AND purposely cripple the camera by allowing it to overheat.

This would just give people the idea that you don't know how to engineer a product. 

Cripple it by leaving out the high end features, don't cripple it by making yourself look incompetent!

 

I think a cock up of epic proportions has happened somewhere along the way at Canon, this surely can't be deliberate.

 

Again, if this isnt deliberate, how do you see the alternative playing out? Did they not test the camera's? Did they test them at 3 km high? Did they test them for 5 min and called it a day? 

Canon themselves have released the information about overheating first. They know exactly what kind of product they are releasing. It has an 'overheating management' tab in the menu ffs. 

They jusy want to release the r5 and r6 right now, in their current state. For whatever reasoning. 

Idiots. 

 

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3 hours ago, Nezza said:

The good news keeps on coming! 

 

Yikes, I shoot in those temps or hotter every day. If I can't get any video at all while out shooting stills in the sun, my R5 preorder is on life support as of now. I really like shooting with the EOS R, but I was looking at the R5 as my A-cam, not something for just cutaways or a stills only body. Every new bit of info makes it more likely I'll be holding on to the a7r3 and adding a a7s3 preorder - so close to dropping Sony's ergos, menus and shitty touchscreen.

Chris

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3 minutes ago, Stab said:

They jusy want to release the r5 and r6 right now, in their current state. For whatever reasoning. 

To hurt other companies mostly. And to be able to claim "first!" for 8K.

And with the way some Canon users are, they may make these cameras a success and reward them for it. 😞

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I am interested in seeing side-by-side tests with the cameras main hybrid, mirrorless rivals using settings as similar as possible. This means testing the R6 next to the A7III, Z6 and S1; shooting full frame 4K 30p H264 8bit 4:2:0 internal (these setting give as close as possible Mbps across the four camera as I read the various specs) and then seeing how long they can shoot for before overheating. With this test, we would know if the R6 has a fundamental design flaw compared to its rivals or whether this problem only applies when it is used in settings that the Z6 and A7III don’t have.

If this test showed the R6 doesn’t overheat with these setting (any more than the others), it would demonstrate it has matched it’s main rivals at least for video. Then buyers can consider if the R6’s autofocus, IBIS, in camera colour science are important benefits over the other choices along with the stills side of shooting.

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Well at least it has a 4k mode to shoot on. I think the r6 is even worse! No 4k mode without running into overheating issues lol. And its only a 20 megapixel camera! So people will only get an r6 if the video is good and it was a true hybrid (which is how they advertise it ) - but it doesn't even do that. Big-time flop. 

 

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28 minutes ago, Oliver Daniel said:

 

What I’m interested to hear is how the camera performs with constant short bursts of recording with 4k60fps and 4k120 over an hour period with a 15-20 break in between each hour. That’s how a lot of commercial and music video shoots go these day’s. 

 

80% of my work is commercials and 10% music videos. On a normal shoot day, the camera is only ever powered down for battery changes, lunch break and location changes that require loading back into a van for travel. All other times, cameras are kept on.

"For professional use......" Surely if what we are seeing now ends up being the case for the final release, no professional would risk their career on a camera like this? 

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52 minutes ago, jgharding said:

The S1H, I took it out at the height of a hot day, was shooting bursts (I always shoot bursts) and video for ages, but the fan didn’t even seem to come on

I NEVER heard my fan start up in my S1H, it's that reliable. And I use it as my main camera everyday. I sometimes complain about the size of it, or the weight, oand most often the lack of good AF, but I rather have a big chunky camera  with an AF that's not as good as competitors, but still be able to shoot anytime and everytime I want, under any climatic conditions without having to bring some cooler to put the camera in every hour for 20mn. 
What a fucking joke !!

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1 hour ago, cameraeye said:

This camera would be absolutely amazing if not for this issue.

The issue is that the marketed, heavily, the video capabilities. IF they had just marketed as the best professional photo mirrorless camera from Canon with class leading AF then I don’t think there would have been much of feeling of disgust with what they did. You don’t have to buy the camera, of course! But many people were excited with what they marketed to us and then...this.

53 minutes ago, jgharding said:

i don’t know why the obsession with shrinking professional tools, for me it’s a lose lose, I prefer the larger ones in use and they don’t boil themselves.

I agree. We don’t see shrinking hammers, saws, or power tools. Make the tool for the intended job! Professionals want performance and reliability. Everyone made fun of the Lumix S1/R/H for its size...well no one will complain if you show up with an S1H on set. Show up with a R5 and you’ve brought a liability not a tool.

 

34 minutes ago, A_Urquhart said:

think a cock up of epic proportions has happened somewhere along the way at Canon, this surely can't be deliberate.

Let’s put the pieces together.

Mathew Allard said not even Canon employees tasked with briefing the reviewers/press before the release knew or disclosed of the temperature limitations. He said you had to attend multiple meetings of the same presentation for different geographical areas to get the full picture. This is sloppy as hell.

The specs they touted the most was 8K and 4K120p! Go back and look at the information they released. It’s very video focused.

The initial “reviews” of the camera were from canon ambassadors. As more “first looks” came out, with Gordon Lang saying in his video he wasn’t allowed to talked about rolling shutter, it began to become apparent the narrative was being heavily controlled by Canon. Even has preorders were being accepted for this cameras!

Not one person, besides Gordon Lang, showed or discussed the quality of the 4K24p pixel binned mode!

Why did it take so long, after so many people released their “reviews”, “first impressions”, and “previews”, for Gerald Undone to completely blow the lid off the incredibly limiting and frustrating aspects of this camera after a few days having it? Using the camera outside it typical weather shooting 30-40 STILLS and then not being able to shoot ANY video Except the now, to put it lightly, sub par pixel binned 4K mode...its completely unacceptable for even a family camera! Oh! Snap 30 pictures of my dog playing in the grass...OMG the baby is taking its first steps! Switch to video...overheated can’t record! Professional kit? Don’t think so...

46 minutes ago, newfoundmass said:

I'm kinda impressed that Canon managed to tout groundbreaking features only to unleash possibly their biggest Canon Cripple Hammer of all time, all at once.

It’s worst than a cripple hammer. Like Andrew said, its defective and maybe deceptive marketing!

 

Everybody wanted this camera to be good. There is no bias or Canon bashing here. I wanted so bad for this camera to deliver. After Gerald told us the TRUTH, it sucks...it sucks hard.

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4 minutes ago, Video Hummus said:

The issue is that the marketed, heavily, the video capabilities. IF they had just marketed as the best professional photo mirrorless camera from Canon with class leading AF then I don’t think there would have been much of feeling of disgust with what they did. You don’t have to buy the camera, of course! But many people were excited with what they marketed to us and then...this.

Yeah, I wouldn't mind so much if the 8K and 120 4K weren't front and centre in their advertisements. The annoying thing is, given the 8K Raw, if the camera had no overheating it had the potential for very good longevity as an investment and tool.

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I don't see anything as being deceptive unless they claimed zero overheating and such. All the professional claims is just marketing, whether it fits into your workflow is a you decision, not on Canon. There's plenty of info out now and there will be more before the first one ships on Thursday. The R5 is certainly shaping up to be a pro grade stills camera, so Canon's larger audience should be happy. Its more just really, really disappointing for those of us looking for a Canon hybrid video workhorse that checks all the boxes. A lot of us have been waiting for "The One" hybrid solution and this was it - on paper. A 5d-ish body with a cooling would be an easy pivot for Canon - the R5c. Maybe with all the noise we see one next year. It would sell really, really well.

Chris

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Yeah, I never give too much credence to promotional material anyway. I just think Canon decided to follow Sony's lead rather than Nikon's because that's where the market was heading. But they didn't really change their stripes.

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Wouldn't mind picking one of these up for controlled studio shooting: if sales are poor we might see heavy discounts by holiday season or more likely next year. The original EOS-M bombed and Canon was forced to clear inventory by basically giving it away.

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9 hours ago, Cliff Totten said:

For MONTHS I have been posting here and other places what my Canon insider contact told me in January. The R5 will have serious recording restrictions. He wouldn't tell me why specifically. He simply told me with a chuckle and rolling eyes and shaking head.

He knew a long time ago about this. Why?...because these cameras were specifically NOT designed to not overheat. They knew it last year and were 100% perfectly happy to allow it into the design.

Believe me....Canon EOS Cine cam managers were there in R5/R6 development meetings....and they all sleep very well at night knowing the R5/R6 "properly" overheat.

I warned everybody MONTHS ago and people just called me a negative synic.

Now look......he was 100% correct.

Look guys.....my Canon contact who had seen the R5 in development told me this problem in January and he knew about the problem LAST YEAR. Non of this is a surprise to Canon. The overheating was allowed to happen because it was "not designed"...to not overheat.  That never was the design strategy from day one.

What IS surprising Canon is that the design problem is angering people more than they expected it would. The technical design is 100% on target....the public relations backlash was unexpected. They didn't expect THIS much of it.

Canon will never stab it's Cine EOS line in the back. The thought behind the strategy was to keep the pro video people away from it. Its designed for "casual" video shooters only and certainly not for event shooters. Canon has camcorders they desperately want you to buy for that.

This was not an engineering mistake. It was a marketing and public relations miscalculation.

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59 minutes ago, Trankilstef said:

I NEVER heard my fan start up in my S1H, it's that reliable. And I use it as my main camera everyday. I sometimes complain about the size of it, or the weight, oand most often the lack of good AF, but I rather have a big chunky camera  with an AF that's not as good as competitors, but still be able to shoot anytime and everytime I want, under any climatic conditions without having to bring some cooler to put the camera in every hour for 20mn. 
What a fucking joke !!

Yeah, it still blows my mind that Canon’s DPAF is genuinely their last bastion of defense. It really is undeniably good and unparalleled. The S1H hits every other possible mark, so if Panasonic aren’t singularly focused on implementing flawless AF at this point, they‘ll miss their window of opportunity to sweep the competition across the board. 
 

They made a hybrid camera that received Netflix approval... It doesn’t get much more professionally demanding than that.

Even considering that, I’m suggesting my employer buy a couple C200s for our bread and butter cameras. Focus has such a fundamental impact on your image image, that it trumps a lot of other things.

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