Caleb Genheimer

I’m just glad we have people now who know how to consistently test and report on how these CMOS sensors actually perform. It’s the core of every camera, yet all the other stuff they build around it gets all the attention. We’ve been bumming around with 12-bit ADC video modes and adequate LOG profiles for half a decade now, VERY little actual innovation in image pipeline with regards to color or dynamic range. I’m hopeful that with consistent reporting on each CMOS, the manufacturers will be pressured to actually innovate. A leap-frog all the way to 16-bit video ADC seems appropriate now that 12-bit has overstayed its welcome, or now that 8K sensors are showing up, perhaps a dual-ADC bayer pattern or ND Filter Array would be appropriate. This global shutter sensor is an important step, and I’m glad to see it. It indicates that they’re paying attention to demand for sensor improvements, and although it DOES still have trade-offs, they’ve set a new benchmark for hybrid cameras in the category of shutter performance. Critically, I think they learn a lot from *actually* bringing a camera to production, and hopefully the next time out, they’re sticking to global shutter, and innovating further to minimize the trade-offs. Additionally, Sony builds sensors for Panasonic, and it seems like they have some form of ~2-3yr tech swap agreement. If one comes up with something, the other seems to eventually add it into their sensors a few years later. I think Panasonic remains the leader in hybrid bodies for video users, and if they take a swing at full frame global shutter, it will be implemented really well.

I use a Nitze mini v-mount plate with my S1H that they came out with last year, it has a USB-PD output to directly charge the camera. The OEM battery always sits in there, fully charged. It’s great power “insurance,” it can’t run the whole rig but in a pinch it means I can still power the camera for a half day if something happens to the v-mount system, which in my book makes it better than a dummy battery setup. It is very compact with 99WH mini batteries, I have it right up against the closed rear screen, which is too small for any critical work anyway, and while the viewfinder is nice, it’s built for stills, not cinematography, so I don’t use that either.

Yep sounds like we’re on the same page. Not 100% on the Pocket cams, but if they’re 14-bit, they’re doing something wrong, because it performs just like 12-bit (pretty sure that’s what it is though). The XH2s is indeed one of the outliers. Hopefully that means 14-bit is coming to full frame soon. It makes sense Fuji would do it in their S35 cam, as the have a FF “gap” in their lineup (APSC straight to Medium Format).

What? How is that an issue? Every hybrid runs the sensor at 12-bit linear. You have to get into Canon DGO, ALEV, or a real cine cam to get anything better.

I’ve found this to be true (as many likely have,) by having and then ditching a Blackmagic camera. I had a GH5S, which was 10-bit, and quite good, but the P4K seemed definitely better. Then as I used the raw, I learned more about how to properly utilize ACES and color manage my workflow. When I applied that kind of workflow to the GH5S, the differences lessened to one of dynamic range more than anything else, so when the S1H was out and tested with market leading dynamic range and full V-Log, I sold both of the other cameras, and never looked back. The S1H V-Log is a thicker neg than the P4K has, even if the P4K is “raw,” and the S1H is not. It’s also why I’ve avoided external “raw” recorders for the S1H, it’s borderline snake oil, you don’t get any benefit from it. The color fidelity of 10-bit wrapped 12-bit is plenty if the codec and bitrate are healthy. The only reason I want to see sensors start running at higher than 12-bit (or DGO implementation) is for the bump in DR. Low level noise as looked at here is really where the truth resides. I can look at my S1H footage in this way, and there’s definitely some NR going on to wrangle the shadow detail, but the end result is also pleasing, so I’ll take it. Clean organic shadow detail like people long for will always be the territory of ALEV level sensors, and the prosumer cams will always be using a few little tricks to go that “last mile” to a cinematic image. But if they’re good at the tricks, is the minor difference worth the major difference in price? For most, probably not. As always, EOSHD peels back the layers of chaff to take a close look at what’s really going on under the hood of these cameras. Thanks Andrew!

I think the one thing we can unanimously agree upon is that Fuji makes the best looking hybrid bodies by a significant margin. They’ve had the “vintage manual dial” look locked up for some time, but honestly, this “neo/modern” style they’ve worked out is a straight work of art.

@IronFilm Mostly the AMIRA has a different control and ergonomic philosophy. Sure, modules make the 35 very close on paper, but AMIRA is super streamlined For single op all-in-one work in every sense.

@IronFilm Mostly the AMIRA has a different control and ergonomic philosophy. Sure, modules make the 35 very close on paper, but AMIRA is super streamlined For single op all-in-one work in every sense.

I’d still be obsessed with an AMIRA II with this sensor though, that’d be such a cool package.

Excellent breakdown here from CVP… with the sensor structured the way it is, when asked apparently ARRI stated that it no longer allows them to simply “stitch” two sensors by sitting them next to each other, so an LF/Mini LF based on this sensor would presumably require an ACTUAL NEW sensor (just based on this tech,) as opposed to the stitching used previously. ARRI said “never” to an LF with this sensor, but that probably just means it will be a new sensor, and quite a long way off in the future. They’re not gonna just stitch two and drop a new camera next year. Whats INSANE to me is just how clean they can get in the over AND under tests, even compared to their own previous cameras. It’s so clean that they’ve built in a “texture” collection. I was wondering how they’d satisfy folks who are obsessed with their original sensor’s look, but there’s my answer LOL, they have a texture setting designed to match their previous cameras.

I guess I find it very easy to believe in an honest 2-stop gain after 12 years. Sensors across the board are now a lot less noisy. Smaller photosites perform far better than they used to. The potential stacking and layer complexity of CMOS sensors has greatly increased, and I think overall manufacturing consistency is extremely tight now. If I had to guess, they can get two stops just by leveraging the general improvements in CMOS, sticking to their dual gain design. canon for example gain a decent amount of DR via dual gain, but their ADCs on chip operate at a lower bit depth than ARRI’s. I would posit that cleaner, modern ADCs are allowing ARRI to increase their gain offset versus their original sensor, overlapping less but expanding the effective total DR.

“Usually” (other mfrs) new models have new sensor designs, and come out every year or two. ARRI has gone a very long time between updating sensors, I’d expect larger improvements in these rare instances when they’re making core tech upgrades. Most of it being in the shadows makes it very likely to be true. ARRI is heavily biased towards highlight retention. It could also be though of this way: ARRI uses dual gain circuitry, so ~1 stop of improvement in the underlying sensor technology (CMOS) potentially allows them to “double down” on that (via dual gain,) resulting in an extra 2 stops. Heck, we’re 12 years out from their original ALEV sensor, wafer and chip tech has come a LONG way in that decade. All else being equal, sensors now produce cleaner images even if the DR is very similar. I’m actually super curious to see if any prominent folks will feel this new sensor is “too clean,” many seem to love the ALEXAs for their texture, even if it is subtle.

No, I don’t. You have no physics evidence to refute ARRI’s claim. They do not use a typical CMOS sensor configuration, they use dual gain architecture at high bit depth to arrive at a higher dynamic range than common CMOS sensors, and there absolutely is real physics behind how they do it, because their current sensors ALREADY do it. There’s no secrets (although there are patents protecting it,) and I think it is not only reasonable, but obvious, to conclude that in the many years since their original sensor design, there are improvements in sensor technology that now allow them to improve by a couple stops.

This is right on. It doesn’t *really* matter what stop number ARRI say the DR of their new sensor is, they’re very consistent and technical with their numbers. They rate it having two stops more than their previous sensor, so however you’d rate the original sensor, this one will have two stops on it. It sounds like a decent amount of that is aimed at cleaner shadows, with a touch of bonus in the highlights, which makes sense. ARRI is the poster child for highlight handling, everyone points at them and says “just do roll-off like that, it’s perfect,” so it is logical they’d largely maintain that behavior. I also understand the talk of ARRI bumbling the sensor update, but that’s not gonna happen either. ARRI will have put these in the hands of diehard users and ironed out any minor gripes behind the scenes long before release. ARRI users aren’t afraid to say when they don’t like a camera, and ARRI has the very top cinematographers essentially as beta testers. I’m very interested to see where the future of DR in theaters goes after this new camera is out in the wild. Should be a required bit of kit on DolbyVision sets IMO. This is 100% square one for an eventual refresh of their entire lineup though. Just like LG cut multiple size TVs from one “master glass,” I’m assuming ARRI can make varied sizes of this new sensor architecture for a new LF, and even stitch them for a new ALEXA-65. I also don’t doubt that they’ll take their sweet time. The potential update I’d be most excited to see is the AMIRA though. It really is such a cool iteration, the preset toggles enable you to work VERY fast, and it shoulders flawlessly with minimal rigging. The only things it’s awkward for are gimbals (due to length,) and anamorphic due to the 16:9 sensor. I hate gimbals, so if they update it with this new sensor without chopping down the height, I’d be VERY tempted.

This is my dream