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Blackmagic Pocket Cinema Camera 4K

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1 hour ago, A_Urquhart said:

Maybe 2018 has made people soft. I don't know when it started that people had to have Autofocus and IBIS to be able to shot on their own. Remember the Canon 5D that started this whole DSLR video revolution, it didn't have usable AF in video mode or IBIS and we all shot fine with that.

Here is an image of someone operating a camera with no AF and no IBIS, on their own. 

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Indeed but when that 5DII popped up? (you even look like to repeat some post I had posted here before LOL) Let me see... 4Q 2008?

We're speaking about what here, actually and more exactly?

Tripod or slider shots? Is that?

How much is the price range of that cinema camera BTW? Because it was mentioned US$ 1-1.5 grand, the same for the top smartphone offering all that PDAF has implemented from some time earlier than 4Q 2018.

 

You know something? Something that really pisses me off is when we, me included if/when happens (hey, I am not perfect either! LMAO : ) tend to forget a point because we have something of our inner own -- like an investment we did, no matter how small it is... just to protect or to massage our self esteem ; ) This is not honest : ) I am not glad to feel like to have to write it anywhere, go figure here, but we're trading a subjective interest for a fact. Doesn't serve the truth or the reality of the facts. Reason why fanboys end to get a pejorative meaning over these and other boards, I'm afraid.

But you have there good tap to focus, as far as it is reported from that video I commented... so, why bother with my AF remark? : X

If it is because I've mentioned that. Let me tell you starting to present my disclaimer that for three years during my film school going along with 16mm film, I had to be focus puller without clue if me and my colleagues, we'd have the whole school to praise or curse our skills when the 'collective footage' was used to be pixel peeped @ big screen, just arrived from lab rushes.

Moreover, what for that cap on the operator's head with the RED up there? : D As much helpful as AF or IBIS for handheld shooting, I presume...?!

C'mon... give me you all of those old school lovers a break because I've already given to him @wolf33d on his usual point whenever a new release comes, pretty fair BTW : -)

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31 minutes ago, A_Urquhart said:

You can record 4k60p in RAW on the Pocket4k with no problems. You just need to use 3:1 or 4:1 RAW, so no need to wait for BRAW (another compressed RAW format).

I really don't know anyone who needs uncompressed RAW though. The Red Weapon doesn't do uncompressed RAW at all, only compressed at 2:1 and up. Is there anyone here that would say the Weapon is not good enough for them?

IF the Pocket4K's USB port is USB3.1 Gen 2, then maybe we'll see an external drive like an NMVE drive, be able to record uncompressed but again, you really don't need it.

Generally, you need two SSD's working as a RAID configuration to get uncompressed RAW. The Convergent Design Odyssey can only record uncompressed RAW CDNG  at 4K60p when there are SSD's in both slots and your files end up needing to be merged afterwards. Wile it's not technically a RAID config, it does send every second frame to the second SSD as the data rates are just too high for a single SSD to handle. Same as Ursa Mini Pro, you need two CFast Cards in the camera for Uncompressed at 60p

 

Maybe 2018 has made people soft. I don't know when it started that people had to have Autofocus and IBIS to be able to shoot on their own. Remember the Canon 5D that started this whole DSLR video revolution, it didn't have usable AF in video mode or IBIS and we all shot fine with that.

I have to agree with you on the autofocus and IBIS. Now that all these gimbal manufacturers are beginning to offer wireless follow focus motors for cheap these systems take care of these 2 issues. The only reason I would need autofocus and IBIS is if I am traveling and don’t want to bring a gimbal or I just feel like being lazy and would rather hand hold the camera. For those reasons I would just bring my A7RIII. 

I know most people will say why have 2 cameras when you can have all these features in 1 camera but I haven’t see this perfect camera yet. 

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24 minutes ago, grex said:

I have to agree with you on the autofocus and IBIS. Now that all these gimbal manufacturers are beginning to offer wireless follow focus motors for cheap these systems take care of these 2 issues. The only reason I would need autofocus and IBIS is if I am traveling and don’t want to bring a gimbal or I just feel like being lazy and would rather hand hold the camera. For those reasons I would just bring my A7RIII. 

I know most people will say why have 2 cameras when you can have all these features in 1 camera but I haven’t see this perfect camera yet. 

Ah so there's also travelers not to be forgotten here... ; ) Let me see, the best camera is that one you have with you, isn't it? Or should we infer we have to resign on our phone camera for that? ; -)

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12 minutes ago, Emanuel said:

Ah so there's also travelers not to be forgotten here... ; ) Let me see, the best camera is that one you have with you, isn't it? Or should we infer we have to resign on our phone camera for that? ; -)

Best camera for the job i suppose. If i need something professional i will deck out the Pocket 4K with whatever i require for that project (follow focus, gimbal, etc) i enjoy modularity and the fact that this camera starts off small and can be built up to your needs), if i'm on a family vacation and want to travel light while running after my kids then i'll go for convenience (IBIS, Autofocus). I don't think iPhones are up to the quality standards we are looking for as of yet.

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41 minutes ago, Emanuel said:

Tripod or slider shots? Is that?

No, people have been handholding cameras for many years.

 

41 minutes ago, Emanuel said:

How much is the price range of that cinema camera BTW? Because it was mentioned US$ 1-1.5 grand, the same for the top smartphone offering all that PDAF has implemented from some time earlier than 4Q 2018.

Does a phone shoot the quality of images the Pocket4K can? A smartphone has PDAF and an Array Alexa at over $70,000 doesn't. So what? I just don't get these arguments. If a phone has what you require, use it. Don't buy the pocket4. Pretty simple really isn't it?

41 minutes ago, Emanuel said:

You know something? Something that really pisses me off is when we, me included if/when happens (hey, I am not perfect either! LMAO : ) tend to forget a point because we have something of our inner own -- like an investment we did, no matter how small it is... just to protect or to massage our self esteem

I have multiple cameras from three different manufacturers. I bought them each for their individual strengths. I did my research knowing what I needed and didn't need. I have no self esteem to protect here. I knew that the Pocket4K didn't have IBIS and wouldn't have a good, usable continuous autofocus system. No blackmagic camera ever has.  I haven't just found this out and now feel the need to defend my decision. Is this really how people are these days?

I know I can focus a camera manually, I know that when I am shooting on my own, I can attach a lens with OS or carry a tripod/monopod if need be or even shoot from the hip on a cine saddle.  

The price of the camera makes no difference, but if you need IBIS and AF, buy a camera that meets your needs. The pocket4k never claimed to have IBIS or usable continuous autofocus so I don't understand the disappointment here. 

22 minutes ago, Emanuel said:

Ah so there's also travelers not to be forgotten here... ; ) Let me see, the best camera is that one you have with you, isn't it? Or should we infer we have to resign on our phone camera for that? ; -)

If you wan't a travel camera, buy one that was designed for that purpose. I travel and take family photos/video with my Fuji X-T2. Sure, I could take family/travel videos with the Pocket4k but I don't like taking multiple cameras with me on holidays so I make the decision to sacrifice a little image quality for convenience. 

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No disappointment with this camera at all. I am actually with both of you @A_Urquhart @grex in your choice : D

Maybe only with a brand which is still lazy in several aspects and old school when market is trending somewhere else.

Thanks for your entries and civil reply BTW, much appreciated, really (E : -)

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8 hours ago, Chrad said:

I definitely prefer the softer, less digital look of the P4K image, really nice. The noise levels are mostly due to playing to the weaknesses of the GH5s though, by underexposing in V-Log.

Both videos are both ETTR towards the sky.

The Pocket 4K simply has way better dynamic range.

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6 minutes ago, deezid said:

Both videos are both ETTR towards the sky.

The Pocket 4K simply has way better dynamic range.

Correct Dennis : ) This camera is the best bang for the buck. I am just upset with the brand. Andrew was fully right on that one. I've been in touch with several people inside the company. Grant Petty should address all that. Their policies and lack of vision for a noteworthy business much different than broadcast realm so to this segment, affordable cinema cameras or hybrids ballpark, simply suck. My only complaint.

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35 minutes ago, Emanuel said:

Correct Dennis : ) This camera is the best bang for the buck. I am just upset with the brand. Andrew was fully right on that one. I've been in touch with several people inside the company. Grant Petty should address all that. Their policies and lack of vision for a noteworthy business much different than broadcast realm so to this segment, affordable cinema cameras or hybrids ballpark, simply suck. My only complaint.

Policies and lack of vision? 

Andrew is upset because he didn't get an invite to an event. That is the only reason. Before that, he was looking forward to the camera despite knowing that there was no IBIS, No flappy screen and no usable AF. We all knew it!

1 hour ago, Emanuel said:

Maybe only with a brand which is still lazy in several aspects and old school when market is trending somewhere else.

And which market are you pigeon hole-ing the Pocket4K into? It was never meant to compete with Hybrid or mirrorless cameras for travelling or your mobile phone like you keep comparing it to. Blackmagic have always been about Image quality and affordability and are the leaders of the market at this price point and even way above. They lead the market in image quality in a camera this small, they lead the market in image quality at this price, they have had 10bit in a tiny camera for years and mirrorless are only now catching up so how can you say they are 'old school and lack vision? I know this makes me sound like a BMD rep (as Andrew suspects) but It's just getting tiring here on the Pocket4K thread constantly hearing people complain about things that we have known all along and expecting the camera to be something it was never intended to be. 

@Andrew Reid I started a thread where people could complain all they like about how the Pocket4K isn't a mirrorless hybrid. It would have been nice to have all this complaint somewhere and kept this thread for useful information. Why did you close that thread? The conversation had already started on it. Now, for useful information here, people have to trawl through pages and pages of useless argument. Really disappointed in your 'my way or the highway' dictator-like attitude Andrew. 

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Why so harsh man? Is that really needed? What do you know about my experience with this company?

For your information, I've dealt 28 camera units with Blackmagic now. These days... Never saw so improper attitude coming from a similar industry player in my 25 years of business. Real world. Period.

Business policies and lack of industry vision, yes. Or you only are able to talk about technology?

You complain. Very well, I also complain on lack of business knowledge from a few of you. Go to school. That's what I did. Why to spread misinformation on topics we have no even clue they exist?

Who are you after all?

Sorry pal, but I am starting to see you as a shill over us. I read recent Andrew's thread on topic. And that's what comes to my mind after your new post. You look like a child to whom we can't address a compliment or the kid starts to misbehave. Fully stupid this attitude. You come here to insult (y)our webmaster... In the same page. C'mon, give yourself a better shot.

16 minutes ago, A_Urquhart said:

Policies and lack of vision? Are you for real!? 

Andrew is upset because he didn't get an invite to an event. That is the only reason. Before that, he was looking forward to the camera despite knowing that there was no IBIS, No flappy screen and no usable AF. We all knew it! 

And which market are you pigeon hole-ing the Pocket4K into? It was never meant to compete with Hybrid or mirrorless cameras for travelling. Blackmagic have always been about Image quality and affordability and are the leaders of the market at this price point and even way above. I know this makes me sound like a BMD rep but It's just getting tiring here on the Pocket4K constantly hearing people complain about things that we have known all along. 

@Andrew Reid I started a thread where people could complain all they like about how the Pocket4K isn't a mirrorless hybrid. It would have been nice to have all this complaint somewhere and kept this thread for useful information. Why did you close that thread? The conversation had already started on it. Now, for useful information here, people have to trawl through pages and pages of useless argument. Really disappointed in your 'my way or the highway' dictator-like attitude Andrew. 

 

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15 minutes ago, Emanuel said:

Why so harsh man? Is that really needed? What do you know about my experience with this company?

For your information, I've dealt 28 camera units with Blackmagic now. These days... Never saw so improper attitude coming from a similar industry player in my 25 years of business. Real world. Period.

Who are you after all?

Sorry pal, but I am starting to see you as a shill over us. I read recent Andrew's thread on topic. And that's what comes to my mind after your new post. You look like a child to whom we can't address a compliment or the kid starts to misbehave. Fully stupid this attitude. You come here to insult your webmaster... C'mon, give yourself a better shot.

Emanuel, I didn't insult Andrew in my post, I stated a fact and expressed my disappointment in his actions. I stand by the motto, lead by example and Andrew (as our leader!) has used expletives against me a few times while I never have towards him. A forum is about all of us, not just his agenda. Yep, if I don't like it, I can leave but I am also free to express myself as I think it's s shame for me and possibly some here if we all left. 

If I sounded abrupt, it's purely because all this arguing over unrealistic expectations is getting boring and overtaking the thread. 

 

15 minutes ago, Emanuel said:

Business policies and lack of industry vision, yes. Or you only are able to talk about technology?

I don't need to justify myself to you, but Ive done Business management, I understand it perfectly fine thanks.

 

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58 minutes ago, A_Urquhart said:

Emanuel, I didn't insult Andrew in my post, I stated a fact and expressed my disappointment in his actions. I stand by the motto, lead by example and Andrew (as our elder!) has used expletives against me a few times while I never have towards him. A forum is about all of us, not just his agenda. Yep, if I don't like it, I can leave but I am also free to express myself as I think it's s shame for me and possibly some here if we all left. 

If I sounded abrupt, it's purely because all this arguing over unrealistic expectations is getting boring and overtaking the thread. 

 

You've sounded, yes. To infer someone is dictator is not the use of a friendly approach. At least to me. I hate to have to read ad hominem attacks on here or anywhere else. First off, we can discuss a point. We just can address some personal point directly to the person we want to reach. There are places for.

I wouldn't call autofocus tracking unrealistic. IBIS, as well. BMD has even introduced tap-to-focus on their lineup now. When some other contenders give that to the customer. It is pointless my personal use. That's what I'm trying to express myself before.

On the other hand, this manufacturer is self-centered on the broadcast segment. But, they deliver cinema cameras exclusively (trust me) from that angle. Offering that like a hybrid tool. This makes little sense to my perspective.

My disappointment is not towards this camera, as said, but their standpoint.

Andrew's report on his Manchester event experience only raised up a red alert I could unfortunately confirm. Sad find by the way. Nothing about that case now. That's the way they see the market from their broadcast market target. And you come here to tell us they're focused to produce cinema cameras? They don't even care to understand what a hybrid tool means. Impression got from real contact in the real world, not fanboyism delirium... Is this good? Not to my book, I'm sorry.

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13 minutes ago, Emanuel said:

I wouldn't call tracking AF unrealistic. IBIS, as well. When some other contenders give that to the customer. It is pointless my personal use. That's what I'm trying to express myself before.

So should the Panasonic Varicam, Red Helium, Arri Alexa, Sony F5, Kinefinity Mavo etc all offer IBIS and Tracking AF considering that they cost many thousands more? Surely they should be able to include  AF in their high priced cameras considering my phone has it right? For the price of an Alexa, you'd also think they could include a front facing camera for taking selfies!

Interestingly, did you know that the Sony A7III face tracking AF apparently doesn't work when using an external monitor or recorder? Now theres something not many people would have known when they bought the camera!

And BMD are giving you other things that no other manufacturer are. Go and complain that Panasonic are not giving you a free, top of the line edit suite when you buy a GH camera. Go and complain that Sony are not giving you internal TC, Phantom power, XLR inputs, a 5" 1080p screen, RAW, internal 10 bit etc. 

Its all about priorities. If your priorities are more in line with what Panasonic are doing, buy a Panasonic. 

 

13 minutes ago, Emanuel said:

On the other hand, this manufacturer is self-centered on the broadcast segment. But, they deliver cinema cameras from that angle. Offering that as like a hybrid tool. This makes little sense to my book.

Self centred? Blackmagic are more open than any other camera manufacturer I know.

Look, I like a conversation , that's why I'm here so if you want to continue, feel free to PM me but I'm not sure this is the right place to talk about a companies business models. 

 

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14 minutes ago, A_Urquhart said:

So should the Panasonic Varicam, Red Helium, Arri Alexa, Sony F5, Kinefinity Mavo etc all offer IBIS and Tracking AF considering that they cost many thousands more? Sureley they should be able to include  AF in their high priced cameras considering my phone has it right?

Interestingly, did you know that the Sony A7III face tracking AF apparently doesn't work when using an external monitor or recorder. Now theres something not many people would have known when they bought the camera!

Self centred? Blackmagic are more open than any other camera manufacturer I know.

Look, I like a conversation , that's why I'm here so if you want to continue, feel free to PM me but I'm not sure this is the right place to talk about a companies business models. 

 

It seems it is you who has something to address me where publicly doesn't fit ; )

What should it be said in public?

Pity, that 'shill argument' feeling didn't abandon me yet...

 

This brand is not the one some of us would expect but a few supporters sell like they are the last cookie of the pack? And then someone comes to invoke the real world...? What real world?! There's real world beyond our own perspective and experience whichever it is.

Your excuse is pointless when we're not discussing cinema cameras, only the $1-1.5K price range, exactly the hybrid segment, have you forgotten? ; -)

 

 

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10 minutes ago, Emanuel said:

Your excuse is pointless when we're not discussing cinema cameras, only the $1-1.5 grand price range, exactly the hybrid segment, have you forgotten? ; -)

I mean, the thread title has Cinema Camera in it. It doesn’t say the price range or hybrid segment. 

Personally I’m not here to compare this to any other camera, just to evaluate how well it does this things it promises to do. It doesn’t promise to have ibis, af or take high quality stills so there’s little point in comparing those elements to cameras that do, of course they’ll win.

Comparing it’s low light, clipping, audio etc is much more important. 

Rambling on about lack of features it never even hinted at having is almost as pointless and insightful as repeating the fact that it doesn’t fit in your pocket. 

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9 minutes ago, Anaconda_ said:

I mean, the thread title has Cinema Camera in it. It doesn’t say the price range or hybrid segment. 

Personally I’m not here to compare this to any other camera, just to evaluate how well it does this things it promises to do. It doesn’t promise to have ibis, af or take high quality stills so there’s little point in comparing those elements to cameras that do, of course they’ll win.

Comparing it’s low light, clipping, audio etc is much more important. 

Rambling on about lack of features it never even hinted at having is almost as bad as repeating the fact that it doesn’t fit in your pocket. 

LOL Right. That title. The marketing...

It is not only on lack of features. But attitude. I think this brand is overestimated. Fanboys see it like the last return of the Savior. That's not what my experience tells me. Let alone the business perspective someone might expect from a company too centered on the broadcast segment when the media convergence is changing this industry. It is only a distinct viewpoint. But people seem to rather listen or see flowers about...

 

9 minutes ago, A_Urquhart said:

You don't categorise a camera based on it's price. 

Who? You. You are not everyone, man. Not at all. Come here to call dictator to someone else... LOL

I do it, as for instance. Not idea in your background, but I categorize a camera under different perspectives, being price range one of them. Speaks two decades and a half on this industry ; -)

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