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Blackmagic Pocket Cinema Camera 4K

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24 minutes ago, MattH said:

You're right.  The pocket 4k has literally no advantages.  Might as well throw it in the bin.

I wouldn’t go that far. But whatever advantages it may have comes at the expense of some important functionality when operating alone.

Many discount the need for such features with the excuse that it’s a cinema camera. But cinema cameras generally use cinema lenses with distant markings that are used in conjunction with position marks on the set so that focus can be set beforehand. How many P4k users will be doing this?

That’s just one example, but needless to say many of these features on hybrid cameras exist to make the task of capturing the shot plausible for a single operator.

9 minutes ago, webrunner5 said:

There is no way in hell the GH5 or the GH5s is going to have a better overall output than the PK4 can produce. End of story. Now for convenience to get that better output, sure it is sucking ass compared to a GH5, GH5s.

Don’t worry most will never get those shots. The skills and crew required will keep such imagery safely out of reach of most. Goggle Red Raven footage and get ready for a feast of out of focus shots🤗

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EOSHD Pro Color for Sony cameras EOSHD Pro LOG for Sony CamerasEOSHD C-LOG and Film Profiles for All Canon DSLRs
3 minutes ago, DBounce said:

 

Which is exactly why most buyers will never get it. Goggle Red Raven footage and get ready for a feast of out of focus shots🤗

Very true. But if I was talented enough to try to break into the indie market I would buy the PK4 over the Gh5. Now if I was rich I would have the PK4 and the GH5s to try to inter mix using an external recorder on it shooting ProRes.

We are still back to no one camera is the best for every situation. And I doubt that will ever change.

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1 minute ago, webrunner5 said:

Very true. But if I was talented enough to try to break into the indie market I would buy the PK4 over the Gh5. Now if I was rich I would have the PK4 and the GH5s to try to inter mix using an external recorder on it shooting ProRes.

We are still back to no one camera is the best for every situation. And I doubt that will ever change.

And there would be your mistake, because the P4k will require more resources to actually shoot nice footage. 

FYI: when I was at NAB I asked the Panasonic rep about ProRes Raw... and he said it could be added as a firmware update if they felt the need to up the ante should the P4k threaten the GH series. So don’t be surprised if that happens. Also Atomos and Apple are busy trying to convince camera manufacturers to get onboard with their new format.

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1 hour ago, jonpais said:

Some will say the GH5s looks warmer, more cinematic.

Others will say the Pocket 4K has better motion cadence and color science.

Pixel peepers will say the Pocket has better highlight recovery.

Skeptics will say they're practically indistinguishable.

All I've gotta say is, the GH5s acquits itself quite well and would be a great gift idea for anyone's four year-old niece. :) 

 

 

Nice Berlin model that is for sure :)

They look pretty similar to me and the BMD LUT comparison saw the GH5S come out ahead due to the better exposed skintones, but then that is more a comment on the LUT than the camera.

I like the slightly higher black point in the Pocket 4K close-up shot of the eyes... But again that is just grading.

I'm still waiting to see a demonstration of the actual image quality advantages of the Pocket 4K's RAW codec rather than just pretty pictures, so I'll be sure to check out Slashcam's next article. Should be quite revealing.

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8 minutes ago, DBounce said:

And there would be your mistake, because the P4k will require more resources to actually shoot nice footage. 

FYI: when I was at NAB I asked the Panasonic rep about ProRes Raw... and he said it could be added as a firmware update if they felt the need to up the ante should the P4k threaten the GH series. So don’t be surprised if that happens. Also Atomos and Apple are busy trying to convince camera manufacturers to get onboard with their new format.

Yeah but even if the Panasonic cameras get it there will still be a difference. BMD just has better Color Science. The PK4 is sort of a poor mans UMP 4.6. I think for pure film making it is a better tool. No real Cine camera is just a real Joy to use compared to say your Fuji X-T3. They take effort to get it right. A hell of a lot of effort. Hell if it was easy everyone would be making 5 Star movies.

And nobody said making movies was cheap. Even your C200 rigged out well has to be over 10 grand, and that is a bargain compared to some!

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I don't think so. A Panasonic rep at NAB wouldn't have the slightest clue what Panasonic would do if the Pocket took off, nor would he know whether ProRes RAW could be added via a firmware update. If a rep did even have that information, they would never say so at the show. 

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The colour science is at least 80% done in post when you shoot LOG... and 99% when you shoot RAW!

The colour science is in Resolve and can be applied to any camera with a capable enough codec!

What we need to know are things like -

- Dynamic range in LOG and RAW

- Noise in shadows

- High ISO performance

- 8bit vs 10bit

And the job of the grading is to get the colour to match perfectly between the two cameras being tested.

I still have no idea how the GH5S and Pocket 4K really compare in dynamic range, noise and bit depth.

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Yeah but it is totally possible it Could happen because BMD is giving all of it away free. Panasonic would be a fool Not to implement it if possible, and I am sure it is possible. Even the Apple Raw thingy is a big improvement if you just happen to be a Apple user. Now whether they, Panny, wants to make Apple richer than they already F ing are, that is to be seen.

6 minutes ago, Andrew Reid said:

The colour science is at least 80% done in post when you shoot LOG... and 99% when you shoot RAW!

The colour science is in Resolve and can be applied to any camera with a capable enough codec!

 

I somewhat agree, but you are Never going to make a GH5 look like a Canon, or a UMP 4.6k, or a Arri just by using Raw. If that was the case we would all be shooting with BMPCC that now cost 300 bucks and never look back, and Arri would go belly up..

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Sorry for the Google translate from Slashcam.

The RAW behavior in CDNG filming remains interesting: the ISO between 100 and 1000 only remains a metadata specification that does not change the recording directly. Due to the dual ISO sensor, however, the brightness jumps from ISO 1250 (up to 6400) to a second, brighter level in which the exact ISO are again just metadata. As of ISO8000, a further amplification is added, which is also "baked in" to the RAW data. The following graphic illustrates this in more detail:

Noteworthy is that Blackmagic the native ISO of the sensor with 400 (or 3200 indicates). Since one can switch the ISO but also up to 100 and according to the measurements of Blackmagic the dynamics here is not reduced, you may interpret this good conscience as a built-in ND filter and use as well. In practice, of course, this only shifts the gray point in the ISO interpretation (similar to an exposure index).

1733-Pocket4K_DR-pocket4k_DR.jpg

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3 minutes ago, Andrew Reid said:

The colour science is at least 80% done in post when you shoot LOG... and 99% when you shoot RAW!

The colour science is in Resolve and can be applied to any camera with a capable enough codec!

Yes. In my opinion this is why the P4K comes out way on top when we're speaking only of image. When .braw hits the P4K, good night everyone.

Now of course image isn't everything. But 2 things people seem to overlook often on the P4K is the user interface and false color. 

Not saying those make up for IBIS, AF, battery life, etc. But they aren't forgettable either, although a lot of people do. :)

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4 hours ago, Emanuel said:

The whole point is BMD guys are slow to compete with hybrid features like AF and IBIS as for instance or even a different camera range in the same segment.

Hybrids arrived to a certain point Jannard's DSMC intended to be. Scarlet 3K for 3K, now lowered to 1K-1.5K (BMD realized that but they struggle to deliver hybrid features).

 

4 hours ago, jonpais said:

Just off the top of my head, the GH5 was a big leap in terms of codecs and functionality over the GH4; the X-T3 has a video prowess nobody imagined possible just a couple generations ago; and the EOS R introduced an on/off dial: hardly what I’d call incremental improvements. 

 

I realise that other companies are also no slouch at innovation, and I was half-kidding about wanting to be a BMD fanboy.

In terms of BMD being slow to compete with hybrid features, well yeah, we're back about half-a-dozen pages in this thread where I was basically shouting from the rooftops about it being a cinema camera....  but in a sense it has taken a half-step to being a hybrid as it does have some of the hybrid features, albeit weak implementations.  

I think it's trying to be a hybrid and failing about as much as hybrids are trying to be cinema cameras and failing.  Everyone wants the best of both worlds and as various manufacturers offer up cameras that get closer and closer to the middle ground between the two we're getting more and more confused about what type of cameras there are, what types there should be, and what types are best for us (and the job we have at hand..).

I am pretty stoked at how fast Resolve has come over the last few years though.  In that regard they're basically the only ones jumping ahead significantly.

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5 minutes ago, webrunner5 said:

I somewhat agree, but you are Never going to make a GH5 look like a Canon, or a UMP 4.6k, or a Arri just by using Raw. If that was the case we would all be shooting with BMPCC that now cost 300 bucks and never look back, and Arri would go belly up..

In terms of colour, you ARE going to be able to make a GH5 look like a Canon if you shoot raw on both, as the image processing would be identical, with identical tools at your disposal in Resolve for both cameras. Raw is a direct tap on the sensor and does not involve the usual in-camera colour processing.

What matters most with raw is the raw performance of the sensor output, not the image processor or in-camera colour science.

Sensors do vary in their colour capture but that is not the same as colour processing.

Colour capture on the Kodak CCD sensor in the Digital Bolex for example looks very analogue, very pleasing.

But the same sensor is in the GH5S and BMCP4K so if both shoot raw, I'd expect both to look identical in raw given the same spec of raw codec.

6 minutes ago, Jonesy Jones said:

Yes. In my opinion this is why the P4K comes out way on top when we're speaking only of image. When .braw hits the P4K, good night everyone.

It is not goodnight in the slightest :)

The codec is just one aspect of the image. Put yourself in the position of the audience. You do not sit there and only notice one aspect of the image. You also notice the sensor size, the lens, the low light performance, the dynamic range, the frame rate, the motion cadence, colour, grain and more.

Sure the codec will make it's mark on all of the above (apart from sensor size and optics).

But honestly, there's a reason most Alexa shoots are ProRes, not raw. Because the image quality gain is minor (in terms of the end result)

 

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The Slashcam video is a real world test, not a lab test with a bowl of fruit and an X-Rite Colorchecker.

Nonetheless, out of 88 comments on their YT video so far, there is no conclusive response that the P4K absolutely crushes the GH5s in terms of image quality.

And watching the video at home on my 55" OLED, they both look damn good to  me. 

Time to get back to watching season 4 of Suits. Loving that Alexa image. :) 

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22 minutes ago, jonpais said:

The Slashcam video is a real world test, not a lab test with a bowl of fruit and an X-Rite Colorchecker.

Nonetheless, out of 88 comments on their YT video so far, there is no conclusive response that the P4K absolutely crushes the GH5s in terms of image quality.

And watching the video at home on my 55" OLED, they both look damn good to  me. 

Time to get back to watching season 4 of Suits. Loving that Alexa image. :) 

We are talking one persons Grading ability. I would not bet the farm on your statement. 😜

7 minutes ago, webrunner5 said:

We are talking one persons Grading ability. I would not bet the farm on your statement. 😜

There is no way you are Ever going to get this look, I have it posted it earlier, shot on a BMPCC, the original one, with a GH5, or a GH5s.

 

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1 hour ago, kye said:

 

 

I realise that other companies are also no slouch at innovation, and I was half-kidding about wanting to be a BMD fanboy.

In terms of BMD being slow to compete with hybrid features, well yeah, we're back about half-a-dozen pages in this thread where I was basically shouting from the rooftops about it being a cinema camera....  but in a sense it has taken a half-step to being a hybrid as it does have some of the hybrid features, albeit weak implementations.  

I think it's trying to be a hybrid and failing about as much as hybrids are trying to be cinema cameras and failing.  Everyone wants the best of both worlds and as various manufacturers offer up cameras that get closer and closer to the middle ground between the two we're getting more and more confused about what type of cameras there are, what types there should be, and what types are best for us (and the job we have at hand..).

I am pretty stoked at how fast Resolve has come over the last few years though.  In that regard they're basically the only ones jumping ahead significantly.

I'd tend to never be a fanboy of a company self-centered into the broadcast sector when we live media convergence days as ever before, if some people haven't understood yet.

I don't find hybrids to be bad cinema cameras, rather the opposite or this website wouldn't even exist. Neither this thread with more than half million of views, trust me.

People come here not because they're not happy with their hybrid cinema cameras. Only because they want much more. Hybrids are reaching that one.

As observer and industry player, I'd say 5DII was only the first stone to be followed by that 'S' model by Sony with Panny to include 10-bit 4:2:2 in-camera, now even Fuji has added their 4:2:0 version.

How long up to arrive to the BMD standards? Will it be so long? Is anyone sure of that will be a long road from today? C'mon...

Why that same GH5S sensor? I've even asked to someone top ranked inside BMD, just a few days ago and he was unable to deny it... Disclosed information, he defended himself. Give us a break for a very simple reason: market and its players will dictate that one, step by step, from any incremental introduction now because giant leaps have been taken. Not marketing -- rather different than market(s) who actually establish the rules.

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21 minutes ago, webrunner5 said:

Great, I will send you a Cookie!

The video you posted was shot with the original Pocket.

It's got nothing whatsoever to do with how the GH5s compares to the P4K.

The GH5s and P4K both share the same sensor; and nothing I've seen so far convinces me that Blackmagic is having Panasonic for lunch.

Thanks for sharing the video though. It rocks.

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1 hour ago, jonpais said:

I don't think so. A Panasonic rep at NAB wouldn't have the slightest clue what Panasonic would do if the Pocket took off, nor would he know whether ProRes RAW could be added via a firmware update. If a rep did even have that information, they would never say so at the show. 

So the Product Manager would have no idea what is going on with his product? I somehow think he would be in the loop.

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