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Blackmagic Pocket Cinema Camera 4K

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18 minutes ago, Yannick Willox said:

I don't see where fanboyism comes in.

I was looking at a GH5s, but out of reach financially. Can anyone tell me what a GH5s does, that the P4K cannot do at least as good, except for battery life.

I know the battery life on a GH5s is good enough to show up at a concert and tape the entire 2h without needing a power socket, which is a big plus. On the other hand, for the price of one GH5s you buy 2 P4K, both come included with a power socket (optional on the GH5s), and for the same money I have two cameras.

If I want to save on storage, I could shoot the P4K at 1080P & prores LT. Now that would be an interesting comparison, the full HD of the GH5s versus P4K ? Amazing nobody looked at that angle yet. I thought one of the major gripes with current hybrid cams is that they are all optimized for 4K.

I don't have Pocket4k, but with previous experience, first to come in my mind for comparing with Panasonic is - question of reliability of parts, connectors, even electronics. Maybe there's no reason to worry, I don't know. Also GH5s is in some sort of discount at many place (in Europe it seems that difference is about 550-600e now even in clean distributors, but Pocket is not yet available) - at the moment that you can really get Pocket in hands, price will be even closer.

But - as already being mentioned before - GH5s and Pocket, although similar actually are also very different, highly depending on other components and preferences of your usage chain as whole (starting or not from scratch, other camera in disposal, raw usage, and mostly your budget - it could be easy turning out that Pocket finally become more expensive than GH5s!).

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15 minutes ago, Shirozina said:

Also a lot of people have the notion that the image quality will be substantially better than the GH5 and GH5s based on the specs and spurious claims about 'color science' or other 'mojo' BM will bring to the table.

The GH5 and GH5s produce a very good image both in terms of what it looks like and how the codec behaves in grading so people really need to 'manage their expectations' about the extent of the improvements the P4K will bring about in terms of final image quality. In particular with the GH5s which by all circumstantial evidence shares the same sensor which I haven't see evidence of being intentionally crippled by Panasonic so the improvements are likely to be minor. 

 

I agree, but I haven't seen those statements either.

I have worked extensively with the GH5 and I am 100% sure that P4K will have much better image, like the GH5S has already.

Having the same sensor as the GH5S, a bigger monitor and a much better internal video recorder, with half the price (in my country) making it a very interesting option, don't you think?

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56 minutes ago, Yannick Willox said:

Can anyone tell me what a GH5s does, that the P4K cannot do at least as good, except for battery life.

Sure,  for one thing the build quality is much better... magnesium alloy vs plastic. Weather sealed body. Dual SD slots that can act redundantly. OIS supported correctly. Works 100% with many gimbals with full control of  focus, rec/start stop etc... Full remote app support.  3 year warranty.  Multiple still shooting modes. Support for battery grip. Flip out screen.  Flash support.  Wireless and NFC support. 10.2 MP stills with usable AF in stills mode. 12 fps burst rate. Not to mention a ton of monitoring tools. And much much more...

Now, other than codecs what does the P4K bring to the party that the GH5s doesn't and how reliable will it be with its plastic build? And don't get me started on the ridiculous crop in high frame rates.

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11 minutes ago, DBounce said:

Sure,  for one thing the build quality is much better... magnesium alloy vs plastic. Weather sealed body. Dual SD slots that can act redundantly. OIS supported correctly. Works 100% with many gimbals with full control of  focus, rec/start stop etc... Full remote app support.  3 year warranty.  Multiple still shooting modes. Support for battery grip. Flip out screen.  Flash support.  Wireless and NFC support. 10.2 MP stills with usable AF in stills mode. 12 fps burst rate. Not to mention a ton of monitoring tools. And much much more...

Now, other than codecs what does the P4K bring to the party that the GH5s doesn't and how reliable will it be with its plastic build? And don't get me started on the ridiculous crop in high frame rates.

From an engineering standpoint plastic can have advantages over a metal. At current UK prices the GH5s is £1000 more than the P4k. The GH5s doesn't have RAW and doesn't come with a free version of Resolve Studio. 

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4 minutes ago, Shirozina said:

From an engineering standpoint plastic can have advantages over a metal. 

Sure it can. But the GH5s is weather-sealed - dust, splash and freeze resistant; the Pocket 4K isn't.

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47 minutes ago, Kisaha said:

I agree, but I haven't seen those statements either.

I have worked extensively with the GH5 and I am 100% sure that P4K will have much better image, like the GH5S has already.

Having the same sensor as the GH5S, a bigger monitor and a much better internal video recorder, with half the price (in my country) making it a very interesting option, don't you think?

Which is why I'm buying one to complement but not replace my GH5 

I will make a judgement call on the image quality when I do my own tests but I am managing my expectations based upon that fact that using the GH5 with an HLG capture and Resolve Color managed workflow I'm not complaining about it's image quality at all.

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Last week the GH5s was on sale and cost less than the P4K. But still.. dont think I would pick the Panasonic over the BMD if it was for video only. The GH5/G9 maybe since they are both cheaper as well and have IBIS.

Imo it still apples to oranges. Hybrid vs Cinema Camera. One shouldn't end up having to pick between them. To me that sounds like its time to take a step back and evaluate exactly what it is one needs.

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4 hours ago, tekeela said:

In this thread: a handful of people repeatedly crying about being oppressed for not liking a camera.

Not in this thread: BM fanboys giving critics a hard time.

...a camera or the brand itself? :-X

1 hour ago, Mattias Burling said:

Hybrid vs Cinema Camera. One shouldn't end up having to pick between them. To me that sounds like its time to take a step back and evaluate exactly what it is one needs.

Hybrid is something a CC will never be but a CC will tend you shoot more motion than stills when not only stills...

I find this camera unique of a kind.

They will be in trouble when X-H2 will be outside though. Albeit only if sooner than later. I guess 2019 shall be a terrific one anyways, maybe from scratch (only price will justify 2018 models by then) already from beginning, very early, perhaps Feb/March if/when X-H2 and GH6 will pop up ; -)

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3 hours ago, Kisaha said:

I can not identify, not even one BM fanboy here!

I can see a bunch attacking the P4K for something that it isn't (a hybrid camera), some that pre-ordered and finding it an excellent and cheap solution for their needs, and some (the majority I assume, including me) that are really intrigued by this release from -used to be- a small player that can easily fit many people's workflow, but we are waiting for real world reviews and to check quality and software issues.

I'd love to be a BM fanboy..  they're pushing out products that are big leaps forward, not the usual "it's 4% better than last-years model" that is so common.

I love Resolve, despite it being buggy and now so complicated it might be easier to actually fly the space shuttle, but they just don't make cameras targeted at me! ???

2 hours ago, Yannick Willox said:

If I want to save on storage, I could shoot the P4K at 1080P & prores LT. Now that would be an interesting comparison, the full HD of the GH5s versus P4K ? Amazing nobody looked at that angle yet. I thought one of the major gripes with current hybrid cams is that they are all optimized for 4K.

I agree.  We may find that the 1080 output (either 1080 RAW, 1080 Prores, or 4K to 1080 downscale in post) is a really cinematic sweet spot.  I'm looking forward to those tests.

1 hour ago, Shirozina said:

Which is why I'm buying one to complement but not replace my GH5 

I will make a judgement call on the image quality when I do my own tests but I am managing my expectations based upon that fact that using the GH5 with an HLG capture and Resolve Color managed workflow I'm not complaining about it's image quality at all.

It certainly would be a good compliment between the GH5 and P4K.  Both great cameras, but optimised for different tasks.  I think you have the right attitude - not the "which is better" mindset, but the "the best tool for the job depends on the job" mindset :)

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26 minutes ago, kye said:

I'd love to be a BM fanboy..  they're pushing out products that are big leaps forward, not the usual "it's 4% better than last-years model" that is so common.

The whole point is BMD guys are slow to compete with hybrid features like AF and IBIS as for instance or even a different camera range in the same segment.

Hybrids arrived to a certain point Jannard's DSMC intended to be. Scarlet 3K for 3K, now lowered to 1K-1.5K (BMD realized that but they struggle to deliver hybrid features).

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Just off the top of my head, the GH5 was a big leap in terms of codecs and functionality over the GH4; the X-T3 has a video prowess nobody imagined possible just a couple generations ago; and the EOS R introduced an on/off dial: hardly what I’d call incremental improvements. 

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1 hour ago, Shirozina said:

Where was this - that would be a 50% discount

Cyberphoto had a fire sale. They do that from time to time. I have an email alert for it. Actually thought about it for a while but passed. To many cameras to try.

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2 hours ago, DBounce said:

Sure,  for one thing the build quality is much better... magnesium alloy vs plastic. Weather sealed body. Dual SD slots that can act redundantly. OIS supported correctly. Works 100% with many gimbals with full control of  focus, rec/start stop etc... Full remote app support.  3 year warranty.  Multiple still shooting modes. Support for battery grip. Flip out screen.  Flash support.  Wireless and NFC support. 10.2 MP stills with usable AF in stills mode. 12 fps burst rate. Not to mention a ton of monitoring tools. And much much more...

Now, other than codecs what does the P4K bring to the party that the GH5s doesn't and how reliable will it be with its plastic build? And don't get me started on the ridiculous crop in high frame rates.

Ah, shame on me for having a few drinks and getting sucked back into this constant debate about what is better!

Firstly, lets just get this out of the way. No camera is better! Is Panasonic still going to sell plenty of GH5's? YES! Is BMD still going to sell plenty of Pocket4K's? YES. 

Hasn't everyone learnt yet that no single camera is a 'GH5 Killer' or '>insert other camera model here< killer?

Now that that's out of the way other than codec the Pocket4k has the following that the GH5s doesn't:

- 5" 1080p screen

-  LUT support for viewing or also can be baked into recording

- Timecode input

- XLR input with phantom power capability

- USB-C recording

- CFast recording

- Editable metadata for every shot/ file including lenses used, focal length etc etc in each file

- Internal RAW

- Soon to get, Internal Blackmagic RAW for 12 bit RAW to SD Cards. BMD have confirmed it will be getting BRAW.

- Proper False Colour (not a silly LUT hack)

- Arguably, but seemingly better colour science.

- A far superior and easier to use menu system. This is a really underrated feature. Shooting with and operating the Pocket is just so much faster than any mirrorless camera.

- Build quality is arguable too. The Pocket4k uses a polycarbonate / carbon fibre mix. My $6000 mountain bike that gets a heap of abuse has a frame that is also made of plastic/ carbon fibre! It's extremely tough stuff and lightweight. To the uninitiated, the lightness can be confused with 'cheap feeing'. 

- A far superior workflow from capture to edit.

- Should I list all the features of DaVinci Resolve Studio here? 

I could go on and on. The Pocket4k is in it's infancy as a product. There is no reason why a battery grip couldn't be made for it.

Warranty wise, I had issues back in the day with a GH3 and Panasonic were a PITA to deal with for warranty. Had an issue with an UMP and BMD promptly fixed it.

Comparing a mirrorless hybrid to a camera designed more for cine use is really silly. You know most mirrorless cameras also have heaps of features that the Alexa doesn't? Alexa doesn't have AutoFocus, flash support, or NFC, or or dual SD card slots, or work on 100% of gimbals.........is it a bad camera? But where Alexa does win is image, codecs and ease of use for shooting video so it's a bit ridiculous to dismiss these in the Pocket4k as that is what is most important in a cine style camera. Video Codecs are NOT the priority in a hybrid mirrorless camera. While you may look at a spec sheet and see a long list of features on your mirrorless camera, I guarantee that a proper DP, editor or Colourist is not going to give two shits about 99% of those features. 

But hey, if the feature you find on the GH5 are important to you, then just buy a GH5. The great thing is, you can choose what works best for you.

But ultimately, all those features do not contribute to a nice 'cinematic' (I hate that word) image.

 

 

 

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1 hour ago, jonpais said:

Sale's over. That was last week. :) 

Yes you understood correctly. it was a fire sale.

The same store had $1k of on the GH5 all of September. I mentioned it many times in for example the GH5 thread so people could have a chance to get one.

Its trickier with the fire sales since they are so short. Either limited numbers or time. Sometimes just hours ("tonight only").

 

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9 minutes ago, Mattias Burling said:

Yes you understood correctly. it was a fire sale.

The same store had $1k of on the GH5 all of September. I mentioned it many times in for example the GH5 thread so people could have a chance to get one.

Its tougher with the fire sales since they are so short.

GH6 will inevitably be a need here.

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5 minutes ago, Emanuel said:

GH6 will inevitably be a need here.

Loved the GH3. Skipped the GH4 because of "meh". Skipped the GH5 because of stills and the G9 looks tastier. But maybe the GH6 could be my gateway back to the GH line. After all I love Panasonic, shooting with one today and its the most used brand on my YT.

(For pro work I never touch them though.)

BMD is a totally different beast all together.

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45 minutes ago, Mattias Burling said:

Loved the GH3. Skipped the GH4 because of "meh". Skipped the GH5 because of stills and the G9 looks tastier. But maybe the GH6 could be my gateway back to the GH line. After all I love Panasonic, shooting with one today and its the most used brand on my YT.

I guess 'S' model is over for both Panny and Sony too. We could infer hybrid's milestone. No one can ignore BMD's role whether we like the brand whether not : )

I am like you. Nothing will touch Panny love. Once; it is forever ; ) Let alone YT where no other camera got such spread indeed.

Fujifilm has gotten the best results in the hybrid realm with their aggressive business model now. Seems hybrid shooters are their targeted business today rather than that video world for social media like Panny or broadcast and corporate like Petty's brand.

I wish BMD had their business vision rather than only codecs and color science to be fair. They could and should be further. But seems they don't like you use the word "should" LOL ; -)

 

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2 hours ago, jonpais said:

Sure it can. But the GH5s is weather-sealed - dust, splash and freeze resistant; the Pocket 4K isn't.

No the Pocket isn't but then, are your Veydra primes dust, splash and freeze resistant? No they are not.

You're seriously not going to sacrifice your expensive lenses out in the weather unprotected just because your cheap body that will be outdates in a few years is weather sealed are you?

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