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Why Gerald Undone is wrong about the Sigma Fp-L


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In the YouTube comments “this was the smoothest bloodbath in a while”.

On social media slick ninja-like assassins strike again in the middle of the night, and the unfortunate victim always seems to be the Sigma Fp series.

In what’s a common theme the original Fp and now the Fp-L, I don’t think many of the social media glitterati get this camera.

In the case of Gerald, I don’t think he gave Sigma a fair crack of the whip in at all.

New blog post:

https://www.eoshd.com/news/why-gerald-undone-is-wrong-about-the-sigma-fp-l/

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Maybe save that criticism for the Matti Haapoja's and Peter McKinnon's of YouTube and not the guy that does rather dry long form reviews and regularly criticizes the things you think he's trying to se

Beautiful!  Well done on filming the bees like this - I've tried and it's no easy task. Also, don't apologise for posting your own stuff, assuming it's relevant to the conversation..  It separate

Andrew, you're a smart guy.  So I guess you're just pretending not to know the real reason.  Welcome to the WOKE SOCIETY.  No one is allowed to be different anymore.  Free speech?  Not any more!   Sti

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Andrew, you're a smart guy.  So I guess you're just pretending not to know the real reason.  Welcome to the WOKE SOCIETY.  No one is allowed to be different anymore.  Free speech?  Not any more!   Still believe in biology?  You MUST be canceled, then. We've come full circle and Galileo is to be locked up in the tower again for daring to be a rebel....a CORRECT rebel at that.  So even though the FP and FP-L are in fact amazing cameras we live in a world of little snowflalkes.... but snowflakes that must ALL BE ALIKE.... even though everyone knows no two are alike.  Boys can be girls, girls can be boys, but don't you dare praise a camera for being unique.  It's the UNwoke camera.  Welcome to Alice in Wonderland where things are backwards and upside-down and common sense makes no sense to so many.  I ran out and purchased an FP months ago in large part due to your excellent review and praise and it's one of the coolest little cameras I've ever owned. It can be a stripped-down convertible or a laced-up high performance racer depending on how I kit it out.  Appreciate your defense of the little guy but they will never "get" it.  "They weren't listening then, they're not listening now.  Perhaps they never will."  - Don McLean

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I love the idea of a modular camera and these look great.      I would love one if I needed it.

That said, I am not so sure there is a huge market for it and to get it to do those things you do have to add the costs of the add ons to the camera price (still great value no doubt if you need/want it).

I also think there is still the hangover view of Sigma as a maker of middling to average (and even poor) third party lenses and many will not even try some of their fantastic newer stuff.

One of the worst lenses I ever had was a Sigma prime from the film era and another Sigma zoom was ok on film but much less good on digital for  photos even on a 6mp DSLR.

I love my pre art Sigma 150 2.8 APO macro though.

I also have an ancient Sigma adapter that allowed MD/MC manual focus lenses to auto focus on Minolta A mount cameras so Sigma have always been willing to try stuff (that lousy Sigma prime was a failed experiment by them i think).

 

 

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56 minutes ago, noone said:

That said, I am not so sure there is a huge market for it

Who cares!! The more unique and customised my camera is, the better. Who wants to use whatever everyone else does?

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1 hour ago, timapple said:

Andrew, you're a smart guy.  So I guess you're just pretending not to know the real reason.  Welcome to the WOKE SOCIETY.  No one is allowed to be different anymore.  Free speech?  Not any more!   Still believe in biology?  You MUST be canceled, then. We've come full circle and Galileo is to be locked up in the tower again for daring to be a rebel....a CORRECT rebel at that.  So even though the FP and FP-L are in fact amazing cameras we live in a world of little snowflalkes.... but snowflakes that must ALL BE ALIKE.... even though everyone knows no two are alike.  Boys can be girls, girls can be boys, but don't you dare praise a camera for being unique.  It's the UNwoke camera.  Welcome to Alice in Wonderland where things are backwards and upside-down and common sense makes no sense to so many.  I ran out and purchased an FP months ago in large part due to your excellent review and praise and it's one of the coolest little cameras I've ever owned. It can be a stripped-down convertible or a laced-up high performance racer depending on how I kit it out.  Appreciate your defense of the little guy but they will never "get" it.  "They weren't listening then, they're not listening now.  Perhaps they never will."  - Don McLean

You really turned this into a rant about trans folks?

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53 minutes ago, Andrew Reid said:

Who cares!! The more unique and customised my camera is, the better. Who wants to use whatever everyone else does?

Don't get me wrong, I agree with you.       I love doing stuff no one else does or trying different things.  

Most reviews though are not aimed at that.

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Many don't realize it is Sigma's philosophy to do things differently. They make foveon cameras with some of the most unique shapes out there. Who else does? The fp series probably wouldn't exist if their full frame foveon didn't run into complications, but when deciding to use a bayer sensor they still wanted to do something to differentiate themselves. I applaud them for it.

The "reviews" seem to go out of their ways to find complaints in the camera. Instead of thinking about the many ways to use it to it's potential, complain that you're "confused" (you don't sound very knowledgeable when you keep saying that). He appears to have tested rolling shutter in the worst possible mode at 1.3x crop (31ms) that does full readout resulting in the best quality with slower readout, but didn't mention the normal 1.0x (21.7ms) crop that has better rolling shutter than cameras like the S1H. Or the 1.24x crop RIGHT NEXT to the 1.3x crop that gets a 17.5ms readout. Quite decent. Sure, it'll worsen the quality, but there are options again for what you want to prioritize. Can't open the battery door with the plate you're using? Get a smaller plate. Can't grip it well? Put a grip on it! Worst camera menu system? Have you used a Sony camera? Don't like the idea of rigging it up to be very big? Then don't! Don't like the no memory media message without a card? Now you're definitely looking for reasons to complain... what were you planning on shooting without media? 

CinemaDNG is often spoke of as a negative because it's "too big". It is a clean, untouched, uncompressed, with maximum flexibility in post. Might as well as call any raw video a negative. It goes to one of the cheapest/gb storage medium you can buy without the need for a huge recorder with fans, power requirements, etc. And you still have both options of raw output also, but I wouldn't choose either over cinemaDNG unless you already have the recorder. Hardly any hybrid camera lets you record to a ssd, and I don't know any that still allow cinemaDNG. It's a huge plus.

Comparisons to other cameras are getting out of control. Sure there are a couple things I wish it had that other offer, but I only got it because it offers things others don't.

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'The answer to the followers and sheep will always be Sony or Canon because that is what works best for the mainstream consumer or the average worker.'

I just think you are looking at things slightly back to front. The likes of 'Gerald Undone' and 'DPreview' make their video reviews for the 'mainstream consumer or the average worker'. The 'artist' or 'niche filmmaker' almost certainly has the expertise to workout what sort of camera works best for them - they can see the advantages of a Sigma FPL and are prepared to put up with (or ignore) some of its quirks. I doubt these sort of buyers are looking for youtube validation...

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If gerald and other noted social influencers are interested in product sales from their affiliate links isn't it in their best interests to Shepperd people towards which ever product is the most suitable for their field of endeavors ? Regardless of whether its for a niche field or more mainstream.  a sale of a product is better than no sale, i would tend to think. Maybe thats just me  🤔  The flip side of the coin is their either biased or have reached some sort of understanding with a couple of the manufactures perhaps. 

Don't laugh, but i once bought a nikon v1 purely off the first advertisement i saw about it, sounded like the best thing since sliced bread. 🙄 i was quite agitated when less than 18 months later they decided to can the whole system. These day i like to garner a whole bunch of reviews before i make any sort of decision.

People are going to watch these influencers buy a camera and then probably learn in a short period of time, that it can't do everything that they wanted to try. It seems to be the way of things. Spend some money, learn the hard way and then next time put some thought in it, or simply give up, as its all to hard.

I actually think that camera manufactures must wear some of the blame here. Firstly some of their marketing tactics leave a lot to be desired. Secondly our phones are pretty much all singing all dancing and there's not much you can't do with a late model smart phone, if you put your mind to it. Yet cameras seem to innovate kinda slowly and while you can buy a camera it will have some functionality but will miss out in other areas. No camera manufacture wants to make an all singing all dancing camera it seems.

 Personally i think the most productive thing you can do is continue to educate people. Even if it seems like your pushing a barrow load up hill at times. Try not to make it personal as you'll end up having a coronary and its just not worth it.

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I like reviews in principle because they do provide a certain level of information that can then help you with a purchase decision.

But I never ever base my decision on them and go instead with my own instinct.

I don’t like to follow the crowd either, or the latest brand etc. In fact I’d rather by ‘the same’ unbranded t-shirt or whatever than pay 5x the price just because it has Superdry printed on it.

I used Fuji before it became a thing and it is part of the equation why I left them for the new underdog, the L Mount Alliance.

I wanted to love the original FP...and did, but not enough to buy one to use, though it has been in and out of my shopping basket a dozen times.

When the L was announced recently, I confess I was originally disappointed...

I didn’t want and still don’t want the side attached viewfinder. In fact I hate it and would much prefer a top mounted tilt version of it.

I would dearly have loved a tilt screen. Not a flippy, just a tilt...but this can be ‘fixed’ with an aftermarket job.

No grip? This is the reviewer one that makes me laugh because that is being willfully ignorant in regard to the options that only fools the extremely dumb.

61mp. I didn’t want 61mp...but now I do for that simple reason that a single smaller prime can be used like a zoom (except without increasing compression the more you crop in).

So initially I dismissed it, but now I may very well buy one and I could go in any one of three directions in regard to my third (needed) camera choice.

Option A: The FP-L + grip + 28-70mm f2.8 for ALL my photography (only) needs and I would probably do the aftermarket tilt screen option.

Option B: a user S1R that makes more sense as a camera and as a pure photography tool, but I would not love it or enjoy it as much.

Option C. Another S5 which would work, but is not as appealing as the new FP.

So I agree, the industry largely has it wrong. Sony arguably get so much increasingly right, but that does not mean that others have got it wrong.

And if you watch the roughly 30 minute long presentation that the boss and I think head of the family(?) does in regard to the new FP-L, it doesn’t make you want to buy the thing because you were sold the shizzle, but makes you want to buy into the whole Sigma ecosystem because they are passionate about what they do. Which is rare today, a business that appears to genuinely care about what they produce, even in the knowledge it will not have mainstream appeal.

I have to wait a few months to see what happens work-wise, but if I was making the decision this week, it would be FP-L.

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I think the answer is simple, and comes in two parts:

  1. They aren't film-makers.  The professional equivalent of what YouTubers do would be ultra-low-budget reality TV.  Hardly the basis for understanding a cinema camera.
  2. They don't understand the needs of others, or that others even have different needs.

If someone criticises a cinema camera for "weaknesses" that ARRI and RED also share (eg, lack of IBIS) then it shows how much they really don't know.

I recently bought a P2K, but was considering the FP and waited for the FP-L to come out before making my decision.  The Sigmas aren't for me for a number of reasons, but I don't think they're bad cameras, just that they're not a good fit for me.

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@Andrew Reid - In the article, you say:

Quote

These are all big moves that set up Sigma for the future. They moved in anticipation of all cameras working without moving parts, with infinite shutter lives, very fast rolling shutter and global shutter sensors.

But I wonder how you feel about the rolling shutter on the FP-L.

For me, that alone makes me want to look elsewhere. I have the original FP, and really enjoy it, so I understand most of where you're coming from. I also understand the FP-L isn't a replacement for the original FP. But the RS is definitely a step backwards in my opinion.

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It depends what you plan to shoot with it. Far from ideal for certain situations. Brilliant for others... And silent too.

Mechanical shutters will be obsolete within 5 years.

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I think the problem with the sigma fp and fp L is that they strip down the conveniences of other cameras in favor of modularity, but don't have enough modularity to compensate. I doubt there is anyone out there who is more in favor of customizable cameras than me. But if the options are limited to EVF or no EVF, then that's not customizable, that just means there are two options.

What sigma could have done to differentiate themselves is create an open protocol to allow more 3rd party accessories or even ad hoc solutions. This is entirely on the software side. Here are a couple things I could see myself wanting:

- Add a larger grip that has the shutter button in the right place. If you add a deep, comfortable grip currently, you need to crook your index finger all the way back to reach the controls. I have first hand experience trying to design a grip for the XT-3, it didn't go well and I couldn't achieve NX-1 levels of comfort (despite literally scanning the NX1 and printing a grip with the same shape).

- An XLR adapter that attaches securely onto the USB port like the EVF, eliminating the need for gain staging or dealing with internal preamps. Also more secure than the hot shoe ones that Panasonic has.

- A wireless controller that integrates with other cameras or accessories.

- Ethernet IP video and settings control

With an open IO protocol, these are all things that could be done without hardware changes. If you have that level of customizability, then the comparisons to existing cameras would be less head to head. As it stands though, it's not really much different in terms of use cases, it just has different placement in the traditional categories:

- it's much smaller (many of us don't really care)

- It has rolling shutter in photos (would affect the sports photos I've taken, and most mirrorless cameras can be electronic shuttered if you need silence)

- No 10 bit log video (tbf, only Panasonic has it in FF yet) nor 10 bit photo

- Raw video (most users aren't going to put up with the file sizes anyway, I certainly won't)

- Fixed screen, but better EVF if you pay for it (which is a great idea that more cameras should do!)

And these are all just different design choices, not levels of modularity. The truth is that none of the downsides that prevent me from buying an fp or fp L can be solved with accessories.

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2 hours ago, Andrew Reid said:

It depends what you plan to shoot with it. Far from ideal for certain situations. Brilliant for others... And silent too.

Mechanical shutters will be obsolete within 5 years.

Video.

I hope you're wrong about mechanical shutters. I love the feel and sound of a shutter. Taking stills on the FP doesn't feel any more special than using my phone.... Sure the results are very different, but actually using the camera is more than half the fun.

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