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Panasonic FF L-mount Cine camera coming

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13 minutes ago, Cliff Totten said:

This new camera is everything the S1 (with firmware update) but with the addition of;

Same sensor?
6k internal recording. HEVC
Possible electronic ND filter
400mbps All-I in 4k
Vector and waveform scopes
60p 4k from full sensor readout. (Instead of super35 crop)
USB-C solid state drive recording?
$1,000-$2000 more money?

For raw, I was told at the Atomos NAB booth that S1 raw 4k 1:1 super35 crop IS absolutely coming over HDMI. The big question is, will the S1-H have that PLUS 6k raw?

That seems like quite a bit for a mirrorless camera. If they can get internal NDs in there, have great pre-amps to eliminate any low level hiss from the XLR adapter (that the GH5 did have a bit of), and broadcast approved 10-12 bit codecs for $4k-$5k (or so), I do think that is game-changing. Nobody has anything even close to that in this size, form factor, or price.

Yes, I hope there is some really game-changing extra surprises (like global shutter or 4k 120fps or internal compressed raw), but the above is still leaps and bounds ahead of everything else. There isn't even a manufacturer that offers anything better than 8-bit 420 in UHD.

It's a bummer that people are dismissing the S1 when it is such a more capable camera than an EOS R or any Sony I've used (and way nicer image quality) - just because the AF can't perfectly track people sprinting at them, a situation I have never needed to film in my 7+ years making videos and films... 

 

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EOSHD Pro Color for Sony cameras EOSHD Pro LOG for Sony CamerasEOSHD C-LOG and Film Profiles for All Canon DSLRs

It's all speculation right now but IMHO they need to nail a few key features for this to be something special:

  1. Built-in variable ND
  2. 6K 24p and a HFR 4K greater than 60p internal
  3. 14 stops of usable dynamic range
  4. Internal ProRes offerings
  5. IBIS (but only if it has an effective IBIS LOCK function)

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11 minutes ago, currensheldon said:

It's a bummer that people are dismissing the S1 when it is such a more capable camera than an EOS R or any Sony I've used (and way nicer image quality) - just because the AF can't perfectly track people sprinting at them, a situation I have never needed to film in my 7+ years making videos and films... 

 

Also, according to S1 owners, they should add shutter speed control when shooting in slow motion...

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50 minutes ago, Video Hummus said:

It's all speculation right now but IMHO they need to nail a few key features for this to be something special:

  1. Built-in variable ND
  2. 6K 24p and a HFR 4K greater than 60p internal
  3. 14 stops of usable dynamic range
  4. Internal ProRes offerings
  5. IBIS (but only if it has an effective IBIS LOCK function)

Yep. Prores would be great but I’d love a better more efficient codec like BM Raw, but we’ll see.

id guess h264 and HEVC.

but agree on everything else to make this a huge release. 

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1 hour ago, currensheldon said:

That seems like quite a bit for a mirrorless camera. If they can get internal NDs in there, have great pre-amps to eliminate any low level hiss from the XLR adapter (that the GH5 did have a bit of), and broadcast approved 10-12 bit codecs for $4k-$5k (or so), I do think that is game-changing. Nobody has anything even close to that in this size, form factor, or price.

Yes, I hope there is some really game-changing extra surprises (like global shutter or 4k 120fps or internal compressed raw), but the above is still leaps and bounds ahead of everything else. There isn't even a manufacturer that offers anything better than 8-bit 420 in UHD.

It's a bummer that people are dismissing the S1 when it is such a more capable camera than an EOS R or any Sony I've used (and way nicer image quality) - just because the AF can't perfectly track people sprinting at them, a situation I have never needed to film in my 7+ years making videos and films... 

 

A bit of an unfair comment. It can't even stay in focus during slow pull-ins and pull-outs as all the videos/reviews on the net and my own testing showed. Yes it gets the focus eventually but all the competition is able to stay focused.

 

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Well there are two items that were perhaps the biggest complaints on the S1:

1. No flip screen

2. No PDAF

If Panasonic omits both of these items...  again, we can assume they are properly out of touch with their market. I honestly cannot recall anyone saying, “the S1 would be great... if only it had 6k recording”

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49 minutes ago, KC Kelly said:

If everyone got their wishes fulfilled with this camera, it would cost $15,000 USD!

And the people left out would still moan anyway!

1 hour ago, DBounce said:

Well there are two items that were perhaps the biggest complaints on the S1:

1. No flip screen

2. No PDAF

If Panasonic omits both of these items...  again, we can assume they are properly out of touch with their market. I honestly cannot recall anyone saying, “the S1 would be great... if only it had 6k recording”

RED has no PDAF or flippy-tilty screen, are they out of touch with cinema market? Arri?

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4 hours ago, currensheldon said:

That seems like quite a bit for a mirrorless camera. If they can get internal NDs in there, have great pre-amps to eliminate any low level hiss from the XLR adapter (that the GH5 did have a bit of), and broadcast approved 10-12 bit codecs for $4k-$5k (or so), I do think that is game-changing. Nobody has anything even close to that in this size, form factor, or price.

Yes, I hope there is some really game-changing extra surprises (like global shutter or 4k 120fps or internal compressed raw), but the above is still leaps and bounds ahead of everything else. There isn't even a manufacturer that offers anything better than 8-bit 420 in UHD.

It's a bummer that people are dismissing the S1 when it is such a more capable camera than an EOS R or any Sony I've used (and way nicer image quality) - just because the AF can't perfectly track people sprinting at them, a situation I have never needed to film in my 7+ years making videos and films... 

 

For some people, once you use DPAF, you cannot go back to a camera that doesn’t have a similar feature even if you do not use that feature often. I didn’t think I needed DPAF until I got a 1Dx II. It’s a game changer for solo and doc shooters in certain situations and for specific shots. Also, most users of the small form factor cameras are solo shooters or small production companies.  

They dropped the ball by using a contrast based AF system, especially considering all of the tech they packed into that camera. 

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51 minutes ago, Andrew Reid said:

And the people left out would still moan anyway!

RED has no PDAF or flippy-tilty screen, are they out of touch with cinema market? Arri?

Well if this camera is going to be an option for major productions perhaps a flip screen and PDAF are not needed. After-all, if one is spending several million dollars on a production it's a given that they would have external wireless monitors and dedicated focus pullers. But for a small operation / one man band, well, a flip screen and PDAF could go a long way to make life easier. Perhaps I misunderstood who this camera is targeting? I'll let Michael Bay know at once.

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From what we think we know from the rumours, so far it only seems like 6k and Vlog is included over the S1.

I’ll predict the difference will be external ProRes RAW recording up to 4k60p. 

The 6k will be the marketing headline grabbing “world first” that Panasonic always do (for a full frame mirrorless). 

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Another world first it HAS to have in my opinion is internal NDs...

- world first mirrorless 6k

- world first internal NDs

4k 60fps is not that groundbreaking anymore. Some great codecs are also required. 

Excited to see what else Panasonic has in store. 

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2 hours ago, Andrew Reid said:

And the people left out would still moan anyway!

RED has no PDAF or flippy-tilty screen, are they out of touch with cinema market? Arri?

Well yeah, they are slowly getting in trouble, they are partnering with foxcon to bring cheaper 8k camera, that a sign that they can t keep up with the market.
Almost everything that made RED special can now be find in competitors products for a much cheaper price.

Arri have a complete ecosystem of products, from camera to lenses, to follow focus, to stabilizer, to crane, to light ect. Everything they manufacture is made to endure, that a very different approach from a lot of other manufacturer, and that what high level production are paying for as well.

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8 hours ago, currensheldon said:

It's a bummer that people are dismissing the S1 when it is such a more capable camera than an EOS R or any Sony I've used (and way nicer image quality) - just because the AF can't perfectly track people sprinting at them, a situation I have never needed to film in my 7+ years making videos and films... 

At least here in Switzerland, the price is part of the problem. The A7 III is on sale for 1849 CHF while the S1 is 2999. That’s not a good basis in combination with the fact that the Sony eco system is a lot better developed.

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1 hour ago, Laurier said:

Well yeah, they are slowly getting in trouble, they are partnering with foxcon to bring cheaper 8k camera, that a sign that they can t keep up with the market.
Almost everything that made RED special can now be find in competitors products for a much cheaper price.

Arri have a complete ecosystem of products, from camera to lenses, to follow focus, to stabilizer, to crane, to light ect. Everything they manufacture is made to endure, that a very different approach from a lot of other manufacturer, and that what high level production are paying for as well.

Interesting post on RedUser today:

http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?176501-New-article-The-Cameras-Behind-Netflix-Best-Series-Spoiler-RED-Dominates&p=1856294&viewfull=1#post1856294

This seems like a more sensical and honest marketing tactic than Red had for the Red One. The David Finchers of the world are exactly who want to use this camera system, and its ergonomics and ecosystem demand the same resources (if not more) than you'd want for an Amira shoot, so it's hardly entry-level.

(The David Finchers of the world are sort of the opposite of the Werner Herzogs.... this metaphor makes sense to me but probably not to anyone else.)

This is a major departure from Red's original (questionable) pitch for an "affordable" cinema camera for everyone. Red's new high end systems are about as expensive as Arri's. The Raven, meanwhile, seems to have disappeared and the 3k for $3k camera never materialized, and probably never should have. What was the market for that? I'm curious to see if the Foxconn thing ever materializes and in what form. It seems the high end is where the money is still. Despite everything. Also, Red is privately owned by a billionaire so it could still be unprofitable for all we know.

Another issue with the sub-$10k camera market is that you have a lower level of production that's using it, and so footage shot with those cameras doesn't look as good as it could for that reason (the original Red suffered from this, too). And how big is this market in the first place and how high are the margins?

I'm curious how profitable Canon's, Sony's, and Panasonic's cinema divisions are. Ditto Black Magic. They've cornered a market segment between dSLRs and Alexas that Red seems to be in a rush to abdicate, and there is likely a reason for that. (Selfishly, I hope these cameras stay around because I like them.)

Someone posted a teaser months back showing an EVA1-style body that was hinted at during NAB, so this probably has that form factor... more or less... 

I love the EVA1 and Varicam's color and noise texture–my second favorite image to the Alexa, bar none. Curious if this is positioned above the EVA1 (which is already processing 6k fwiw) or below it and if it maintains that "look" I like, sort of a C300 Mk 1 look with really rich colors.

Edit: bar film, I guess. 

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9 hours ago, HockeyFan12 said:

Interesting post on RedUser today:

http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?176501-New-article-The-Cameras-Behind-Netflix-Best-Series-Spoiler-RED-Dominates&p=1856294&viewfull=1#post1856294

This seems like a more sensical and honest marketing tactic than Red had for the Red One. The David Finchers of the world are exactly who want to use this camera system, and its ergonomics and ecosystem demand the same resources (if not more) than you'd want for an Amira shoot, so it's hardly entry-level.

(The David Finchers of the world are sort of the opposite of the Werner Herzogs.... this metaphor makes sense to me but probably not to anyone else.)

This is a major departure from Red's original (questionable) pitch for an "affordable" cinema camera for everyone. Red's new high end systems are about as expensive as Arri's. The Raven, meanwhile, seems to have disappeared and the 3k for $3k camera never materialized, and probably never should have. What was the market for that? I'm curious to see if the Foxconn thing ever materializes and in what form. It seems the high end is where the money is still. Despite everything. Also, Red is privately owned by a billionaire so it could still be unprofitable for all we know.

Another issue with the sub-$10k camera market is that you have a lower level of production that's using it, and so footage shot with those cameras doesn't look as good as it could for that reason (the original Red suffered from this, too). And how big is this market in the first place and how high are the margins?

I'm curious how profitable Canon's, Sony's, and Panasonic's cinema divisions are. Ditto Black Magic. They've cornered a market segment between dSLRs and Alexas that Red seems to be in a rush to abdicate, and there is likely a reason for that. (Selfishly, I hope these cameras stay around because I like them.)

Someone posted a teaser months back showing an EVA1-style body that was hinted at during NAB, so this probably has that form factor... more or less... 

I love the EVA1 and Varicam's color and noise texture–my second favorite image to the Alexa, bar none. Curious if this is positioned above the EVA1 (which is already processing 6k fwiw) or below it and if it maintains that "look" I like, sort of a C300 Mk 1 look with really rich colors.

Edit: bar film, I guess. 

Yes but Arri is also renting equipement itself to large productions, They are able to offer complete seamless solutions.
Red is selling luxury marketing, including David Fincher who they sponsor .

Nothing wrong with that, it s a business after all, but I feel red is in a awkward position now,  I think that netflix trend with red is going to fade now that Arri have the LF and the LF mini, those camera are still very recent and that article don t reflect that.

Canon and sony have a more define cine/broadcast department that I believe is profitable overall ( I see FS7 and C300 everywhere) Panasonic is more blurry with that I find.
Blackmagic are outputting cinema gear at consumer price and also sell a full post production system to go with it, I think their approach is different , people buy because it s cheap and they are willing to try the product, so whether the client is satisfied or not they still make sales. 

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47 minutes ago, Laurier said:

Yes but Arri is also renting equipement itself to large productions, They are able to offer complete seamless solutions.
Red is selling luxury marketing, including David Fincher who they sponsor .

As far as I see as lately coming and open-minded independent outsider (luckily tolerated because of little bit of respect to another field achievement :), whole film industry relays on hierarchy of mutual "sponsored" circles... What's interesting to me about BM is magnificently well and thoroughly thought-out, clever penetrating bravura. Armed with industry-adds and software that so fast became leader in business, step by step winning over, say, even Pablo (DaVince before BM was just one between equally used grading solution), relatively small BM team evolves strategy that relay not "from-above", but "from-the-ground" base of talented and enthusiastic people. Resolve already,  from software side, totally destroyed any notion of annoying film-industry snobbery. I expect that BM soon makes even more serious threat and impact to top-budgeted part of industry - funding cameras with better reliability and, even more important, when younger generation of film-makers arrive to high positions, dearly remembering their indie-roots with BM and exchanging contacts. Process of establishing BM's important role is, I think, as democratic and human as it could be in modern circumstances. 

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