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Panasonic GH6 rumours


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16 minutes ago, billdoubleu said:

I've only been in the camera/ video hobby for 5 years now. But, I'm shocked more and more every year by how much money people will lay down for what seems like only iterative cameras (same with smartphones). This is a bit more than an enthusiast like me wants to spend, but, I think professionals will respond to this well enough.

Time will tell but this isn’t the same mirrorless market than when GH5 was released in 2017.

GH5 got many budget conscious pros on board back then as it was the only mirrorless offering 10-bit at an aggressive price.

Today, most S35/FF cameras offer 10-bit, some RAW and Sony & CaNikon have flawless PDAF systems.

BMD does ProRes/RAW and has ND’s to boot.

I don’t have numbers but I suspect many users have switched, even to Pannys own FF system and I don’t see them going back to MFT. Not at that price and with AF still lagging behind.

Just seems like a tougher market for Panny to expand outside leftover GH fanatics heavily invested in M43.

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3 hours ago, Django said:


Yeah we’ll like I said you can buy a GH5 new for $1400 and used for as low as $800 so no surprise you got noobs buying them daily and asking those sort of questions. 

But that’s irrelevant to todays market. I just don’t see GH6 making as much noise as it’s predecessors. Not at the rumoured price in the current S35/FF dominated  market..

I guess we'll see.

Lots of people also selling their GH5 and GH5S's to go FF Panasonic or to other brands because the GH5 features have aged, and many of these express regret at having to re-buy their lenses etc.

Lots of the newbies aren't buying a GH5 because of the price, but from the reputation.  I've seen more than one person claim "this is my dream camera of all time" or similar.  There's also a much higher diversity in those groups where lots of people are coming from countries where their greatly reduced buying power makes these things much more expensive in practice.

It's always been hard to separate hype from actual sales except when manufacturers brag about sales numbers they are proud of.

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7 hours ago, Marcio Kabke Pinheiro said:

AF test at 13:00 minutes.
 


If someone is knows Japanese, maybe could understand what our Japanese Undone is saying...

Seems that that video has gone private, however I did locate a translated version of (what I think is) that same video (or, apparently highlights, thereof) here...

Panasonic GH6 Leaked Video - Translated - YouTube

 

...does that look like the same video you viewed earlier? More of a walk-through of the camera's layout than a discussion of any video or stills specs.

Some (internal?) ProRes and All-I options are seen during a brief menu peek, so that's encouraging. Though the (untranslated) section where they're showing an assortment of ND filters seems to shoot down my long-held hopes for Panasonic to finally come-through with an Organic sensor (with on-sensor voltage-controlled variable-ND) for this release...rats.

Anyhoo, I hope this link helps with your question? 🙂

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24 minutes ago, hoodlum said:

"Latitude

Dynamic Range Boost ON: 13+ stops (V-Log) Dynamic Range Boost OFF: 12+ stops (V-Log)Still Image Recording file formatJPEG (DCF, Exif 2.31), RAWAspect ratio4:3 / 3:2 / 16:9 / 1:1File size (Pixels)4:3: 5776x4336(L) / 4096x3072(M) / 2944x2208(S) / 11552x8672(XL) / 8192x6144(LL)3:2: 5776x3848(L) / 4096x2728(M) / 2944x1960(S) / 11552x7696(XL) / 8192x5464(LL)16:9: 5776x3248(L) / 4096x2304(M) / 2944x1656(S) / 11552x6496(XL) / 8192x4608(LL)1:1: 4336x4336(L) / 3072x3072(M) / 2208x2208(S) / 8672x8672(XL) / 6144x6144(LL)Image qualityRAW / RAW+Fine / RAW+Standard / Fine / StandardColor spacesRGB, AdobeRGBMotion Picture Recording file formatMOV: H.264/MPEG-4 AVC, H.265/HEVC, Apple ProResMP4: H.264/MPEG-4 AVC, H.265/HEVCAudio formatMOV: LPCM (2ch 48kHz/24-bit, 96kHz/24-bit) (4ch 48kHz/24-bit, 96kHz/24-bit)MP4: AAC (2ch 48kHz/16-bit)System frequency59.94Hz / 50.00Hz / 24.00HzImage area of videoFull / Pixel by PixelViewfinder TypeOLED Live View FinderPixelsApprox. 3.68 million dots

 

Dynamic Range Boost ON / OFF

ISO sensitivityStill image:[Normal]: Auto / 50 (Extended ISO) / 100-25600[V-Log]: Auto / 125 (Extended ISO) / 250-12800Motion picture:[Normal]:Dynamic Range Boost OFF (Base ISO 100): Auto / 50 (Extended ISO) / 100-12800Dynamic Range Boost ON (Creative Video Mode) (Base ISO 800): Auto / 800-12800[V-Log]:Dynamic Range Boost OFF (Base ISO 250): Auto / 125 (Extended ISO) / 250-12800Dynamic Range Boost ON (Creative Video Mode) (Base ISO 2000): Auto / 2000-12800[Hybrid Log Gamma]:Dynamic Range Boost OFF (Base ISO 250): Auto / 250-12800Dynamic Range Boost ON (Creative Video Mode) (Base ISO 2000): Auto / 2000-12800 (Standardoutput sensitivity)"

 

Curious to know how effective the dynamic range boost would be. 

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I'm not one of them, and will likely be replacing my G85 and GX85 to get two more GH5 bodies given the used prices for the GH5 are pretty good right now, but I know quite a few people that will get this because of ProRes alone. 

If the auto focus doesn't hunt and is accurate (it doesn't even need to be as fast as Sony or Canon, imo, it just needs to be accurate) this will be a great camera. 

Is it a revolutionary update? No. But it's a respectable one. And while you can point to Blackmagic and ZCam, ultimately this is a camera that takes many of those camera's strengths while adding world class IBIS, better AF, and better ergonomics (at least compared to Blackmagic's offerings in that price range.) 

I do, however, think they'd be smart to price it at $2000 instead of $2500. And AF needs to be substantially better, otherwise there's a lot of people that won't even consider it. While it's not something I NEED, it's what the market wants right now, right or wrong. Panasonic puts out great cameras and virtually everyone that uses one has a great experience, but perception is a big deal and the perception that the AF is bad is a major negative. 

 

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9 hours ago, Video Hummus said:

I believe the ARRI and Canon DGO method is reading two gain circuits at the same time.

Kinda sounds like they are doing frame blending from a super fast readout.

I think the ARRI / Canon method is basically a frame blend too.  They've just done a much, much better job of marketing it!

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Canon are very clear about their DGO method:

The key to Canon's Dual Gain Output technology is that each pixel on the sensor is read at two amplification levels, and the two readouts are then combined into a single image. The higher amplification signal captures subtle details in the shadows and reduces noise, while the lower amplification retains information in the highlights. Combining the two produces stunning, clean HDR footage.

I'm not sure how Panasonic are doing it on GH6 but it does sound similar.

In any case, definitely a great feature I'd like to see in more cameras!

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4 hours ago, Django said:

I'm not sure how Panasonic are doing it on GH6 but it does sound similar.

From my read of this article, Panasonic's, er, "dual gain" is accomplished through the use (of what they refer to as) DS-Pixels (dual-sensitivity pixel)

STAP14003fig05_hr.jpg (JPEG Image, 669 × 414 pixels)

STAP14003fig05_hr.jpg?AWSAccessKeyId=AKI

 

...as described in this article (above Citation)...

Advanced features of layered-structure organic-photoconductive-film CMOS image sensor: Over 120 dB wide dynamic range function and photoelectric-conversion-controlled global shutter function - IOPscience

https://iopscience.iop.org/article/10.7567/JJAP.57.1002B4

 

What's most interesting to me is the caption to Figure 4 in that article...

<<

Figure 4 shows a summary of the dynamic range of several materials. The dynamic range of a common silicon image sensor is about 76 dB; however, the dynamic range of the human eyes is said to be 110 dB, including calculation in the brain. This dynamic range is far below the human eyes' capacity. Therefore, we decided to exceed the human eyes' capacity without the above problems by using the new structure of the OPF image sensor, to realize accurate and texture-rich imaging and sensing. We set our SC-WDR target to over 120 dB.

>>

...again, image link from above linked paper...

STAP14003fig04_hr.jpg (JPEG Image, 491 × 400 pixels)

c=

Finally, the acknowledgements from that article...

<<

Acknowledgments

We would like to thank the engineers of Panasonic Semiconductor Solutions Co., Ltd., Semiconductor Business Unit and Panasonic Corporation Automotive & Industrial Systems Company Engineering Division for support in chip design.

>>

_____________________________

 

FWIW, "all of the above" jibes well with Panasonic's press release from 2018...

Panasonic Develops Industry's-First 8K High-Resolution, High-Performance Global Shutter Technology using Organic-Photoconductive-Film CMOS Image Sensor | Headquarters News | Panasonic Newsroom Global

https://news.panasonic.com/global/press/data/2018/02/en180214-2/en180214-2.html

...so, maybe there is an OPF-CMOS organic sensor in the GH6 after-all...er, no "rats"?!

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12 hours ago, Brian Williams said:

OM-1, GH6, in 2022, both overpriced for what the competition is offering these days. My phone is shooting ProRes at this point, it’s not exactly a killer feature anymore, esp with how good hevc is these days. 

ProRes in an ILC with these features is absolutely a big deal for a lot of people, as it's a standard in production houses all over the world. You're underselling it as a feature. 

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17 hours ago, newfoundmass said:

Is it a revolutionary update? No. But it's a respectable one. And while you can point to Blackmagic and ZCam, ultimately this is a camera that takes many of those camera's strengths while adding world class IBIS, better AF, and better ergonomics (at least compared to Blackmagic's offerings in that price range.) 

I have said before that one path for the GH6 would be to do what Sony did with the A7S3 - to keep the same resolution but make it a more serious camera by improving codecs and bitrates and other factors that influence the image, and this seems to be what they have done.

To put it rather bluntly, the GH5 is 5K / poor DR / ok colour / ok codecs and the Alexa is 3.4K / crazy DR / spectacular colour / great codecs and the Alexa image absolutely kills the GH5 in every aspect except resolution, so the path is either to prioritise resolution and put the things that make a great image to the back burner, or to ignore resolution and try and catch up on the things that matter.

Panasonic seem to have chosen to improve what actually matters...

13 hours ago, Brian Williams said:

OM-1, GH6, in 2022, both overpriced for what the competition is offering these days. My phone is shooting ProRes at this point, it’s not exactly a killer feature anymore, esp with how good hevc is these days.

Cool - how does it look with vintage lenses?

11 hours ago, Django said:

Canon are very clear about their DGO method:

The key to Canon's Dual Gain Output technology is that each pixel on the sensor is read at two amplification levels, and the two readouts are then combined into a single image. The higher amplification signal captures subtle details in the shadows and reduces noise, while the lower amplification retains information in the highlights. Combining the two produces stunning, clean HDR footage.

I'm not sure how Panasonic are doing it on GH6 but it does sound similar.

In any case, definitely a great feature I'd like to see in more cameras!

It sounds very similar to the Alexa pipeline - but that doesn't seem to be reflected in the DR numbers?  Other companies who chase DR list much larger numbers in their specs.  I'm not sure how that lines up.

6 hours ago, Jimmy G said:

From my read of this article, Panasonic's, er, "dual gain" is accomplished through the use (of what they refer to as) DS-Pixels (dual-sensitivity pixel)

STAP14003fig05_hr.jpg (JPEG Image, 669 × 414 pixels)

STAP14003fig05_hr.jpg?AWSAccessKeyId=AKI

 

...as described in this article (above Citation)...

Advanced features of layered-structure organic-photoconductive-film CMOS image sensor: Over 120 dB wide dynamic range function and photoelectric-conversion-controlled global shutter function - IOPscience

https://iopscience.iop.org/article/10.7567/JJAP.57.1002B4

 

What's most interesting to me is the caption to Figure 4 in that article...

<<

Figure 4 shows a summary of the dynamic range of several materials. The dynamic range of a common silicon image sensor is about 76 dB; however, the dynamic range of the human eyes is said to be 110 dB, including calculation in the brain. This dynamic range is far below the human eyes' capacity. Therefore, we decided to exceed the human eyes' capacity without the above problems by using the new structure of the OPF image sensor, to realize accurate and texture-rich imaging and sensing. We set our SC-WDR target to over 120 dB.

>>

...again, image link from above linked paper...

STAP14003fig04_hr.jpg (JPEG Image, 491 × 400 pixels)

c=

Finally, the acknowledgements from that article...

<<

Acknowledgments

We would like to thank the engineers of Panasonic Semiconductor Solutions Co., Ltd., Semiconductor Business Unit and Panasonic Corporation Automotive & Industrial Systems Company Engineering Division for support in chip design.

>>

_____________________________

 

FWIW, "all of the above" jibes well with Panasonic's press release from 2018...

Panasonic Develops Industry's-First 8K High-Resolution, High-Performance Global Shutter Technology using Organic-Photoconductive-Film CMOS Image Sensor | Headquarters News | Panasonic Newsroom Global

https://news.panasonic.com/global/press/data/2018/02/en180214-2/en180214-2.html

...so, maybe there is an OPF-CMOS organic sensor in the GH6 after-all...er, no "rats"?!

That looks like the ARRI pipeline from the ALEV sensor:

technology-aleviii-hlgain.jpg

(Source: https://www.arri.com/en/learn-help/technology/alev-sensors )

Any idea on how they are similar / different?

Unlike @MrSMW I don't have a physics genius on the line!

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On 2/16/2022 at 3:31 PM, Django said:

Time will tell but this isn’t the same mirrorless market than when GH5 was released in 2017.

GH5 got many budget conscious pros on board back then as it was the only mirrorless offering 10-bit at an aggressive price.

Today, most S35/FF cameras offer 10-bit, some RAW and Sony & CaNikon have flawless PDAF systems.

BMD does ProRes/RAW and has ND’s to boot.

I don’t have numbers but I suspect many users have switched, even to Pannys own FF system and I don’t see them going back to MFT. Not at that price and with AF still lagging behind.

Just seems like a tougher market for Panny to expand outside leftover GH fanatics heavily invested in M43.

I wish I could disagree with you. But I can't.

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17 hours ago, Brian Williams said:

OM-1, GH6, in 2022, both overpriced for what the competition is offering these days. My phone is shooting ProRes at this point, it’s not exactly a killer feature anymore, esp with how good hevc is these days.

Yeah, there is a sale on the Panasonic S5 where it is $2,200 and it includes both the 20-60 kit lens AND the 85mm f/1.8 lens. So even at $2,200 it seems the GH6 is going to be a tough sell.

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I wish things were different as well but what I expect in 2022 from a +$2K MFT camera is absolute innovation, IQ and speed. Give us S35/FF shooters a major incentive to revert to a smaller sensor. 
 

It probably wouldn’t sting so bad if it weren’t from a MFT camera nobody was expecting: OM-1. Now that camera really delivers. Quad-fuckin-pixel AF. A first! Also brings live-NDs, computational photography, AI AF etc..

That’s not to say GH6 doesn’t improve or bring valuable features to the table (namely ProRes & that wide DR mode) but is that going to be enough? Why is the AF still lagging and not stellar on version 6?

Lets wait & see, a spec sheet may not tell the whole story but again OM-1 sort of stole the GH6 thunder away by raising that MFT bar pretty high!

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