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Panasonic announcing a full frame camera on Sept. 25???

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1 hour ago, Andrew Reid said:

You should try writing an email right now to a rumours site with anything at all in it.

They'd probably publish it.

Then I'd comment on it here like it's fact.

I tried that once because I thought the same thing. Didn’t work. 

Might have to rework my dream specs lol 

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The whole licence agreement of Panasonic from Leica for the L-series Cameras sounds curiously suspect. Because:

1. Not getting Olympus on-board has a Lot more to do with Olympus not being interested in Full Frame. It wouldn't take Olympus to figure that out after spending half a decade patenting all sorts of Full Frame lenses (I will read the literature again to see if it mentioned mount size or name). 

2. Like Sigma (and others before it showed us), it is mostly quite simple to re-mount between various Full Frame lens mounts (unless obviously the mount size are enormously different). So it obviously didn't have to do with merely different mounts. Unless the Olympus mount had some seriously Path Breaking advantages over the Leica one (which seems unlikely, atleast until we hear more of that or until the 1st quarter of 2019 when Olympus' new enormous sized camera is revealed).

3. The Varicam and the Eva aren't using Full Frame Sensors or proprietary Panasonic mounts, which makes Panasonic cinema line-up the last to the full frame party (Blackmagic's prices are too low to count). Therefore Panasonic's high end cinema division also would be looking for a (non-Propreitory) new mount usable for Full Frame lenses for the Full Frame Varicam sensor (which should hopefully make it well before 2020). This may be a reason why Leica wants to edclusively make the Cinema lenses for Panasonic and Panasonic probably didn't wanna share the mount with Olympus.

The whole M43 collaboration wasn't really a collaboration to begin with with various splattering of lenses and technologies between Panaspnic and Olympus. Also no proper roadmap. In the end Panasonic beat Olympus because Olympus' top end cameras didn't have enough video features to justify their price and Panasonic got the IBIS tech from Olympus, arguably the biggest advantage in Olympus cameras. 

 

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Latest whispering is of a miniature L-mount cinema camera:

Quote

I have it from a good source that Panasonic is seriously looking at a S35 or Full Frame Video and Stills camera with internal 4K Raw recording and Live streaming  with Integrated Apps for photo and video sharing to platforms such as Facebook, Twitter, Instagram etc….

The internal Raw recording will be in 4K but the video sharing will be a 4K compressed codec with different 8bit and 10bit 4:2:2 recording options also available.
One of the apps designed for the camera will allow limited video and photo editing before sharing (similar to an iPhone)

These camera/s will have IBIS and AF / face tracking similar to Canons Dual Pixel AF, and  contain inbuilt ND’s. The cameras will also have large articulating touchscreen with a built in audio adaptor.

The source says one or two different version of the cameras are being considered, with modular add ons such as adjustable handgrip, moveable viewfinder etc…
He says to think of a cross between the current Blackmagic 4K Pocket Camera and a Canon XC15 with audio adaptor.

The are set to be announced around NAB 2019

 https://www.l-rumors.com/l2-first-rumors-about-l-mount-cinema-camera-from-panasonic/

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On 11/3/2018 at 8:04 AM, KnightsFan said:

and have 4x the resolution (lp/mm) of their FF counterpart.

Modern lenses already resolve way more than we need for 4K video. 

This point you raised is almost irrelevant for us. 

 

On 11/3/2018 at 12:41 PM, kye said:

His main point was that in a shrinking market Panasonic can't afford to split their R&D budget across two sensor sizes, and it's likely they'll choose FF over m43.


They can duplicate a lot of tech across the camera ranges. 

Nearly all the main players are supporting at least two sensor sizes with their ILCs: Nikon/Canon/Pentax/Sony/FujiFilm/Leica/etc....  Sigma/Olympus/Panasonic were the odd ones out here. But now Sigma(probably?) and Panasonic will be joining the rest and having two different sensor sizes at once. (will be curious if Olympus stays focused purely on only the one sensor size: MFT. Or if they'll join L mount, or something else? I suspect they'll stay with MFT, but L mount odds are not too far behind, with anything else being unlikely)

On 11/3/2018 at 12:41 PM, kye said:

Tony thinks m43 will die..

You mean Tony "The Clickbait King" Northup?

On 11/3/2018 at 2:20 PM, KnightsFan said:

Compare the GH5s with the A7s2, similar resolution, and the A7s2 has at least 2 stops better for 4x lowlight.

Two whole stops? 
Don't just judge the noise of the image. Consider when the color accuracy with the image fulls apart. Panasonic holds up better, while Sony goes yuck at high ISOs.
Then try pushing around in the grade the 10bit image of the Panasonic vs the 8bit of the Sony, then see how quickly your "two stops better" Sony image falls apart. 
Then remember also you need to stop down your lens two stops to have the same working DoF as the GH5S, unless you hate your 1st AC??
The real life difference is much smaller between a GH5S and a7Smk2, I'd even argue the GH5S is better in lowlight to shoot with.

 

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On 11/5/2018 at 8:55 AM, wolf33d said:

I am looking at buying 2 bodies one for photo one for video in the same system to be able to use only the same lenses and one menu and button layout. 

It seems the only option in 2019 will be Sony A7SIII + RIII and S1 and S1s. 


Or Nikon Z7 + Z6

Or Fujifilm X-Pro3 + X-H2 (if those two get an update in 2019? Maybe)

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1 hour ago, IronFilm said:

They can duplicate a lot of tech across the camera ranges. 

Nearly all the main players are supporting at least two sensor sizes with their ILCs: Nikon/Canon/Pentax/Sony/FujiFilm/Leica/etc....  Sigma/Olympus/Panasonic were the odd ones out here. But now Sigma(probably?) and Panasonic will be joining the rest and having two different sensor sizes at once. (will be curious if Olympus stays focused purely on only the one sensor size: MFT. Or if they'll join L mount, or something else? I suspect they'll stay with MFT, but L mount odds are not too far behind, with anything else being unlikely)

That may be true now, but the way I understand it is that it's a shrinking market and that kind of split may not be the recipe for sustainability.  Who knows of course, those with crystal balls  (or steel balls) will be putting all their savings on the winning horse.

1 hour ago, IronFilm said:

You mean Tony "The Clickbait King" Northup?

Every successful YouTuber is clickbait royalty - that's just the reality of getting new subs and keeping ahead of the others - look at the UK tabloids (and sensationalist media the world over) and tell me that it isn't a successful strategy.

What I like about Tony is that he isn't afraid to say things, isn't afraid to predict things, but in addition to those traits (that are shared with nearly all YouTubers) he's also level-headed, admits when he's wrong, and explains his thinking so that you can understand why he came to the conclusions he did.  Even if he gets things wrong he definitely adds to the conversation rather than just taking up your time and contributing nothing.

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6 hours ago, IronFilm said:

Modern lenses already resolve way more than we need for 4K video. 

This point you raised is almost irrelevant for us.

True. But how long will it be before 8k is commonplace? What about photographers?

6 hours ago, IronFilm said:

Two whole stops? 
Don't just judge the noise of the image. Consider when the color accuracy with the image fulls apart. Panasonic holds up better, while Sony goes yuck at high ISOs.
Then try pushing around in the grade the 10bit image of the Panasonic vs the 8bit of the Sony, then see how quickly your "two stops better" Sony image falls apart. 
Then remember also you need to stop down your lens two stops to have the same working DoF as the GH5S, unless you hate your 1st AC??
The real life difference is much smaller between a GH5S and a7Smk2, I'd even argue the GH5S is better in lowlight to shoot with.

My point was that M43 cannot match FF in resolution, dynamic range, and noise levels all at the same time, in response to a general prediction about the future of camera tech. If you say "the GH5s is better than any FF currently out there," I think that's a reasonable claim about a specific collection of products. However, saying "the GH5s shows that M43 can match FF" is a prediction I don't agree with.

If we were to say that the GH5s sensor is better in low light than the (significantly older) a7s2's--which I disagree with--then make an array of 4 GH5s sensors and you have a FF camera with the same per-pixel noise performance, but 4x the resolution.

Is such a thing reasonable to imagine? Not right now--but five, ten years from now it's hard to believe we won't have sensors like that. Right now, M43 benefits from an explosion in camera technology that naturally comes to smaller, cheaper cameras first. The benefits of 10 bit, higher bitrates, etc. are not inherent to M43 sensors, it's just that they haven't filtered up to FF products yet.

Of course, I'm being sort of philosophical about the future of tech. There's a limit to how useful extreme performance is when shooting in the real world.

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6 hours ago, kye said:

Every successful YouTuber is clickbait royalty - that's just the reality of getting new subs and keeping ahead of the others - look at the UK tabloids (and sensationalist media the world over) and tell me that it isn't a successful strategy.

I wasn't necessarily saying that in a hardcore bad way..... (neither a good way? Lukewarm?)

As yes I respect him for his channel size and the hard work he puts into that. I know it isn't easy!

Just I'm highlighting the fact when he says "MFT IS GOING TO DIE!!!!" you should take it with a big grain of salt, as very likely a big part of that reason is for the views.....

 

6 hours ago, kye said:

 What I like about Tony is that he isn't afraid to say things, isn't afraid to predict things, but in addition to those traits (that are shared with nearly all YouTubers) he's also level-headed, admits when he's wrong, and explains his thinking so that you can understand why he came to the conclusions he did.  Even if he gets things wrong he definitely adds to the conversation rather than just taking up your time and contributing nothing.

Oh yes, much better than some other channels. He is actually a guy I watch more often than not.

 

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38 minutes ago, BTM_Pix said:

Just playing devil's advocate here though but a major part of the standard YouTube schtick in general is the follow up "Why I was wrong about xyz" videos.

YouTubers get double value out of it!
They can do the first video, then a SECOND VIDEO about why the first video was wrong 😉
 

38 minutes ago, BTM_Pix said:

 Its like getting two pieces out of one so there is arguably even more of a vested interest in going big one way or the other with the original piece.

Exactly. YouTube rewards people for going big on predictions/claims, rather than more nuanced mild views.

 

38 minutes ago, BTM_Pix said:

I don't envy these creators having to come up with something weekly or bi-weekly to keep subscribers on the hook as, quite frankly, camera technology isn't really that interesting or vibrant enough a topic beyond a few weeks a year of clustered product announcements to keep churning out that level of content.

They're sometimes even daily. Or at least multiple times a week.

 

38 minutes ago, BTM_Pix said:

 With regard to clickbait, I would hope that they would learn a lesson from this blatant piece of it a couple of weeks ago which backfired spectacularly if you look at the comments and the down votes.

All in all the Northups play "The YouTube Game" really really well (& I do admire them for that, they've got 100,000x more success than my YT channel will ever have), but part of that is pushing hard to where the edges are (like predicting MFT will die! ha), however sometimes that means going too far by accident....  which is what they did with that video.

 

2 hours ago, KnightsFan said:

My point was that M43 cannot match FF in resolution, dynamic range, and noise levels all at the same time, in response to a general prediction about the future of camera tech. If you say "the GH5s is better than any FF currently out there," I think that's a reasonable claim about a specific collection of products. However, saying "the GH5s shows that M43 can match FF" is a prediction I don't agree with.

No, but the GH5S illustrates how the gap is and will be closer than many others think.

 

2 hours ago, KnightsFan said:

 If we were to say that the GH5s sensor is better in low light than the (significantly older) a7s2's--which I disagree with--then make an array of 4 GH5s sensors and you have a FF camera with the same per-pixel noise performance, but 4x the resolution.

Will be interesting to see how far ahead the a7Smk3 pushes ahead when (if?) it launches. 


There isn't always a simple linear relationship between things in life. 
A 100ft bridge isn't simply 10x harder than a 10ft bridge. 
A 100,000 list isn't simply 10x faster to sort than a 1,000,000 list. 

If there was, we'd all be shooting with sensors of size 1ft x 1ft
No, BIGGER!! 

 

2 hours ago, KnightsFan said:

 Is such a thing reasonable to imagine? Not right now--but five, ten years from now it's hard to believe we won't have sensors like that. Right now, M43 benefits from an explosion in camera technology that naturally comes to smaller, cheaper cameras first. The benefits of 10 bit, higher bitrates, etc. are not inherent to M43 sensors, it's just that they haven't filtered up to FF products yet.


Technology will nearly always benefit in the smaller sensor first. 

As smaller sensors are easier/cheaper to build than big large wafers of silicon. 

 

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2 hours ago, KnightsFan said:

 Of course, I'm being sort of philosophical about the future of tech. There's a limit to how useful extreme performance is when shooting in the real world.


Exactly. How useful is it? And if MFT gives the performance we need, then do we need to go extreme with FF sensors?

Look at the stills world, APS-C sensors already give all the photographic performance that 99% of us need (More people realizing that is what Fujifilm is betting on. With MF for the 1%, and the rich doctors/dentists/lawyers/hipsters)

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11 hours ago, IronFilm said:

Modern lenses already resolve way more than we need for 4K video. 

This point you raised is almost irrelevant for us. 

 


They can duplicate a lot of tech across the camera ranges. 

Nearly all the main players are supporting at least two sensor sizes with their ILCs: Nikon/Canon/Pentax/Sony/FujiFilm/Leica/etc....  Sigma/Olympus/Panasonic were the odd ones out here. But now Sigma(probably?) and Panasonic will be joining the rest and having two different sensor sizes at once. (will be curious if Olympus stays focused purely on only the one sensor size: MFT. Or if they'll join L mount, or something else? I suspect they'll stay with MFT, but L mount odds are not too far behind, with anything else being unlikely)

You mean Tony "The Clickbait King" Northup?

Two whole stops? 
Don't just judge the noise of the image. Consider when the color accuracy with the image fulls apart. Panasonic holds up better, while Sony goes yuck at high ISOs.
Then try pushing around in the grade the 10bit image of the Panasonic vs the 8bit of the Sony, then see how quickly your "two stops better" Sony image falls apart. 
Then remember also you need to stop down your lens two stops to have the same working DoF as the GH5S, unless you hate your 1st AC??
The real life difference is much smaller between a GH5S and a7Smk2, I'd even argue the GH5S is better in lowlight to shoot with.

 

Great post, man : ) The last paragraph is a pearl then : -)

Unfortunately, and especially to me and many others from motion picture ballpark, FF is replacing the best format ever -- MFT gives what others will never reach: this craft is all know-how and art of lensing it; no other format offers such versatility from C-mount to FF not only but also when coupled to a focal reducer, let alone the whole leftover.

Here's the reason why mainly there are (digital) dinos : D like us who care ; -)

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6 hours ago, IronFilm said:

Just I'm highlighting the fact when he says "MFT IS GOING TO DIE!!!!" you should take it with a big grain of salt, as very likely a big part of that reason is for the views.....

 

6 hours ago, BTM_Pix said:

Just playing devil's advocate here though but a major part of the standard YouTube schtick in general is the follow up "Why I was wrong about xyz" videos.

Its like getting two pieces out of one so there is arguably even more of a vested interest in going big one way or the other with the original piece.

"The Pocket 4K Is Quite Decent Really" is never going to invoke much of a need for a retrospective video the following month.

 

5 hours ago, IronFilm said:

YouTube rewards people for going big on predictions/claims, rather than more nuanced mild views.

 

They're sometimes even daily. Or at least multiple times a week.

 

All in all the Northups play "The YouTube Game" really really well (& I do admire them for that, they've got 100,000x more success than my YT channel will ever have), but part of that is pushing hard to where the edges are (like predicting MFT will die! ha), however sometimes that means going too far by accident....  which is what they did with that video.

It sounds to me like you guys are reacting to the title a lot more than the content?  But even if you aren't, I actually happen to think he presented a reasonable argument that MFT will die.  I think the sticking point might actually be timescales.  We'd probably all agree that MFT will die in the next 100 years, and not in the next 6 months, so it's a question of degrees.  The Northrups talk about long-term trends in a world that has the attention span of a squirrel and I think that mis-match of contexts is often a factor in people disagreeing about this stuff.

In terms of people "making mistakes", or in this example I'd say it's closer to "missing the mark", everyone does that.  But then again, if you gauge things by the internet comments then basically everyone should go kill themselves immediately and companies should give up on everything and hand out fantasies for free.  Plus everyone seems to fall in love with what they own, which is a strange phenomena.

And if you want to get a sense of how level-headed the Northrups can be, check out their reply to Jared Polin around RAW vs JPG.  Tony was so level-headed the video was almost boring to watch - not only did he not capitalise on the drama but his reply was designed to put the whole thing to bed instead of create more.

I think most of their videos are akin to "The Pocket4K is quite decent really" and that's why they have such a following.  They gave the GoPro 360 camera a pretty bad review (for many good reasons) but still presented its good points, and even more recently they still listed its pros and cons when comparing it to the more recent insta360 camera.

They're definitely not perfect, but I think on average they are ahead of 99.99% and criticising them based on the title of a video rather than the myriad of points within the video isn't that helpful.

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