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Panasonic announcing a full frame camera on Sept. 25???

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11 hours ago, wolf33d said:

I can say this as 100% FACT; I know that Atomos is working CLOSELY with Panasonic engineering on the possibility of using HDMI as a data buss for raw sensor data. I can also say that I know a Panasonic pro/Varicam manager that is COMPLETELY against this idea and is aggressively lobbying against this. This is a true fact. Now,...in my "opinion" I believe that this Pro/Varicam manager does not want raw sensor data in a new "S" camera and believes should be reserved for high end camcorders "only". Raw sensor data is certainly technically possible. The biggest problem is the politics INSIDE Panasonic across the different managers. Raw over HDMI is NOT something that all managers want to see in a $3000 camera. It's going to be a "board room" fight. Not a real technical problem.


They should just fire half the people in the pro division. They're causing so much problems!

They're the main reason we for instance don't see a Panasonic EVA1 MFT  😞    Even though that would be completely logical to do!
 

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1 hour ago, IronFilm said:


They should just fire half the people in the pro division. They're causing so much problems!

They're the main reason we for instance don't see a Panasonic EVA1 MFT  😞    Even though that would be completely logical to do!
 

I am not too sure there will even be new m4/3 cameras in 5 years from now. Panasonic Knew they were going to build this S1 years ago. The trend is toward FF. Olympus is on thin ice money wise. Probably half the reason they didn't go in with Panny on the L mount, no money. They are losing money on every body they sell. So if they go belly up, and Panny keeps pushing FF who is going to keep m4/3 moving forward? m4/3 is Never going to catch up DoF wise, or DR wise. It is a loosing battle.

And now that you can buy FF cameras for 2000 bucks who is going to pay 2000 bucks for a m4/3 camera? Only a few, and that don't pay the bills.

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5 hours ago, webrunner5 said:

I am not too sure there will even be new m4/3 cameras in 5 years from now. Panasonic Knew they were going to build this S1 years ago. The trend is toward FF. Olympus is on thin ice money wise. Probably half the reason they didn't go in with Panny on the L mount, no money. They are losing money on every body they sell. So if they go belly up, and Panny keeps pushing FF who is going to keep m4/3 moving forward? m4/3 is Never going to catch up DoF wise, or DR wise. It is a loosing battle.

And now that you can buy FF cameras for 2000 bucks who is going to pay 2000 bucks for a m4/3 camera? Only a few, and that don't pay the bills.

A lot of working professionals earn their bread with GH5 all around the world.

It is a beast of a video camera and can do lower speced photo jobs. The camera records continuous video in many bitrates and flavors, have IBIS (which is great for some people), good ergonomics and the such, unlimited lens selection and speed boosted stuff, does not overheat or any of these e.t.c

I didn't buy it, and I wouldn't, but it is a video (mostly) and photo machine that brings bread in the table. A lot better than any other recent camera (before 2018) of that type (XT-2, other m43, a6xx series, Canonikon e.t.c).

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6 hours ago, webrunner5 said:

I am not too sure there will even be new m4/3 cameras in 5 years from now. Panasonic Knew they were going to build this S1 years ago. The trend is toward FF. Olympus is on thin ice money wise. Probably half the reason they didn't go in with Panny on the L mount, no money. They are losing money on every body they sell. So if they go belly up, and Panny keeps pushing FF who is going to keep m4/3 moving forward? m4/3 is Never going to catch up DoF wise, or DR wise. It is a loosing battle.

And now that you can buy FF cameras for 2000 bucks who is going to pay 2000 bucks for a m4/3 camera? Only a few, and that don't pay the bills.

I'm not so sure.  That interview with the Panasonic exec gave me the impression that they held of going to FF more because they were intimidated by CaNikon rather than it being technically superior in some fundamental way.  And even if they got into 4/3 because it wasn't what pros use, by cramming their m43 cameras with as much tech as possible over and over again, it attracted the lenses the system was missing, and now has an excellent reputation.

The lens lineup is still lacking the holy trinity of lenses (16-24, 24-70 and 70-200 F2.8 equivalent zooms) that pro photogs want, but for video with primes its got an excellent range, plus a decent size advantage with fast glass.

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1 hour ago, kye said:

I'm not so sure.  That interview with the Panasonic exec gave me the impression that they held of going to FF more because they were intimidated by CaNikon rather than it being technically superior in some fundamental way.  


Indeed, maybe Panasonic was waiting for the right magic mix of people behind the system before trying FF? As they had enough sense to realize going solo would be insanity!

And with Leica for the prestige high end and Sigma to bring their own unique twist (Foveon!) plus their excellent lenses (a key key point for any new system!) then Panasonic likely felt they finally had the right partners to take on Canikon head on. 

1 hour ago, kye said:

The lens lineup is still lacking the holy trinity of lenses (16-24, 24-70 and 70-200 F2.8 equivalent zooms) that pro photogs want, but for video with primes its got an excellent range, plus a decent size advantage with fast glass.

Sigma will give that to the L mount in a blink of the eye.

 

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Yeah but 5 years from now All theses FF players will keep driving the price down on FF cameras. Olympus is loosing money on each one now. They can't go lower. Nobody is going to keep buying m4/3 cameras if you can buy a FF one for even the same price, let alone less. And they are not going to get 8K on m4/3 sensor with good results. Heck it is going to be tough to even sell APSC cameras that are anything over a base model one for 500 bucks..

5 Years from now Smartphones will be so good you couldn't give away a camera to the average person. So who is going to buy enough m4/3,  APSC cameras to justify even making them?

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The GH5s is proof that M43 can match FF for video dynamic range, and also having great video low light. 

I wonder if it could do like a QuadBayer version of that for higher MP as well as better low light by a similar process (/algorithm) used by the new night mode on the pixel. 8.9/9MP for Video and (4 times that) 36MP for photos. Some Super HDR mode for photos. A lens redesign could help with having higher res photos.

One of the weaknesses of M43 was apparently the photographic capabilities of the smaller sensor (and lack of PDAF). If they can address those two, and keep the Size a little smaller, I can see it kicking some big fat FF ass. 

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1 minute ago, sanveer said:

The GH5s is proof that M43 can match FF for video dynamic range, and also having great video low light.

That sensor certainly makes great advancements for M43 video. The problem is, any advancement that M43 makes, can be done with FF with 4x the resolution or 4x the pixel size.

The only way M43 can be competitive with FF in both resolution and lowlight simultaneously, is with lenses that let in 4x the light, and have 4x the resolution (lp/mm) of their FF counterpart.

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2 hours ago, KnightsFan said:

The problem is, any advancement that M43 makes, can be done with FF with 4x the resolution or 4x the pixel size.

If you Compare the very top end Nikon APS-C with FF you will see that the difference is very little. Considering that M43 and APS-C are much closer in size than APS-C and FF, you will realise that after a point the differences get Very small.

There was an interesting article in Dpreview not so long ago showing that the difference between top FF and Medium Format also weren't as big.

2 hours ago, KnightsFan said:

The only way M43 can be competitive with FF in both resolution and lowlight simultaneously, is with lenses that let in 4x the light, and have 4x the resolution (lp/mm) of their FF counterpart.

The advancements aren't 4 times as good in any possible direction. If they were all FF sensors would be in the range of 80MP or so.

One doesn't need to shoot everything at super resolution or in super low light. That's more the exception than the rule. 

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Tony thinks m43 will die..

His main point was that in a shrinking market Panasonic can't afford to split their R&D budget across two sensor sizes, and it's likely they'll choose FF over m43.

He also made the point that m43 became popular initially because it enabled smaller cheaper cameras, and that advantage came from it being mirrorless and having a smaller sensor, but we now have FF mirrorless and there's much less of a cost difference from sensor size now, so its advantages are mostly gone.

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3 hours ago, sanveer said:

If you Compare the very top end Nikon APS-C with FF you will see that the difference is very little. Considering that M43 and APS-C are much closer in size than APS-C and FF, you will realise that after a point the differences get Very small.

There was an interesting article in Dpreview not so long ago showing that the difference between top FF and Medium Format also weren't as big.

The advancements aren't 4 times as good in any possible direction. If they were all FF sensors would be in the range of 80MP or so.

One doesn't need to shoot everything at super resolution or in super low light. That's more the exception than the rule. 

Compare the GH5s with the A7s2, similar resolution, and the A7s2 has at least 2 stops better for 4x lowlight. Compare GH5s with a7r3, which has roughly 4x the resolution. Most FF cameras are somewhere in between, with some increase in resolution, and some increase in low light.

Obviously, not every camera will follow these general rules. Sensor tech improves over time, and smaller devices get updated first (cell phone sensors skyrocket in performance, medium format sensors don't get updated every month).

Of course you are right that one doesn't need to shoot everything at super resolution or in super low light. At some point, we all say "this is good enough" and rightly choose not to spend more money for gains that we will never use. My point was that there is simply no physical way for a smaller sensor to gather as much light as a larger one. The GH5s "caught up" in low light by sacrificing resolution.

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Seems like a confirmation that the S1 will be a lot more video oriented. 

I am looking at buying 2 bodies one for photo one for video in the same system to be able to use only the same lenses and one menu and button layout. 

It seems the only option in 2019 will be Sony A7SIII + RIII and S1 and S1s. 

Can’t  wait to see those on the table.

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