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Blackmagic Pocket Cinema Camera 4K

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3 minutes ago, mercer said:

Wait... I thought the P4K was rated at 12 stops of DR by BM and the OG Pocket is rated at 13... am I missing something?

It's 13 stops rated on both.
But the FPN and regular noise on the original pocket as well as color shifts are way too distracting to call it usable 13 stops at least.

https://www.blackmagicdesign.com/products/blackmagicpocketcinemacamera/techspecs/W-CIN-12

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5 minutes ago, AlexTrinder96 said:

defo 13 stops mate!

'The Blackmagic Pocket Cinema Camera 4K features 4/3 size sensor, 13 stops of dynamic range and dual native ISO up to 25,600 for HDR images and incredible low light performance.'

 

4 minutes ago, deezid said:

It's 13 stops rated on both.
But the FPN and regular noise on the original pocket as well as color shifts are way too distracting to call it usable 13 stops at least.

https://www.blackmagicdesign.com/products/blackmagicpocketcinemacamera/techspecs/W-CIN-12

Thanks I don’t know why I remembered 12. I still love the OG Pocket and Micro image... I look at it like this... if you like a more filmic look... the OG Pocket is for you... if you prefer a more modern cinematic look... then the P4K is the way to go. 

Has there been any good 1080p ProRes samples from the P4K floating around?

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1 minute ago, mercer said:

 

Thanks I don’t know why I remembered 12. I still love the OG Pocket and Micro image... I look at it like this... if you like a more filmic look... the OG Pocket is for you... if you prefer a more modern cinematic look... then the P4K is the way to go. 

I was kinda shocked after shooting with the RED Gemini last week at how clean and realistic the image looks using IPP2.
Without some crazy post production it won't look cinematic at all - even though it has some amazing dynamic range. It's just way too clean. Older RED cameras didn't suffer from this "problem".

Same happens with the Pocket 4K. You'll get better dynamic range, no more noise, very natural color - an overall way more realistic looking image which is almost flawless.

Which is a problem - at least in film. You don't wan't a realistic looking image.

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7 minutes ago, mercer said:

 

Thanks I don’t know why I remembered 12. I still love the OG Pocket and Micro image... I look at it like this... if you like a more filmic look... the OG Pocket is for you... if you prefer a more modern cinematic look... then the P4K is the way to go. 

Has there been any good 1080p ProRes samples from the P4K floating around?

The one thing I'm yet to be convinced on from the p4k is the motion cadence... still early days though!

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8 minutes ago, mercer said:

 

I look at it like this... if you like a more filmic look... the OG Pocket is for you... if you prefer a more modern cinematic look... then the P4K is the way to go. 

 

 

I don't think it's a binary choice like that at all.

We have the Pocket, Micro, UMP and new P4k.

Always loved the look of the original Pocket. The Micro while a bit different is very similar and a bit better over all in noise, moire and detail

I can make the P4k look exactly like the pocket/Micro in a minute in post but I could never make the original Pocket look as good as the P4k.

The P4k is a totally next level camera and image.

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1 minute ago, Jim Giberti said:

 

I don't think it's a binary choice like that at all.

We have the Pocket, Micro, UMP and new P4k.

Always loved the llok of the original Pocket. The Micro while a bit different is very similar and a bit better over all in noise, moire and detail

I can make the P4k look exactly like the pocket/Micro in a minute in post but I could never make the original Pocket look as good as the P4k.

 

The P4k is a totally next level camera and image.

Not true. You can't add moire and aliasing in post. 😄

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The ProRes has very little moire anyway. And I’m sure the OG look is easily obtainable with the P4K but for less than $500 used... plus the highlights are better on the OG.

I don’t have a need for 4K for at least another year and I’m hoping ML will help me out when that time comes. If not, a used P4K (or fire sale) will be my next main camera. But I have a feeling another company will have Raw capabilities by this time next year... am hoping it might be Olympus.  

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49 minutes ago, AaronChicago said:

I loved the OG pocket. It had it’s own look. It was a pain in the ass to use for more than 20 min though, without rigging. The P4K is definitely a next gen in every way. Once they add B- Raw 🔥🔥🔥

Once you get used to the weaknesses of the original BMPCC it's a great camera to use. My P4K arrives tomorrow, I can't wait to get buy hands on it. 

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1 hour ago, AlexTrinder96 said:

The one thing I'm yet to be convinced on from the p4k is the motion cadence... still early days though!

Disregarding the arguments that go around about whether motion cadence is a thing,  I think we can already tell how it will act with respect to motion:

Its a rolling shutter, which seems to be fairly minimal due to the native 4k resolution.  But it is there and it will be perceptible to some extent over a global shutter camera.

But if you shoot raw there's nothing I can think of other than the rolling shutter that would effect motion.  With either raw or prores you are getting rid of interframe compression which can effect motion in other cameras.  And in raw you are getting rid of all compression (in case that would effect it)

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1 hour ago, deezid said:

I was kinda shocked after shooting with the RED Gemini last week at how clean and realistic the image looks using IPP2.
Without some crazy post production it won't look cinematic at all - even though it has some amazing dynamic range. It's just way too clean. Older RED cameras didn't suffer from this "problem".

Same happens with the Pocket 4K. You'll get better dynamic range, no more noise, very natural color - an overall way more realistic looking image which is almost flawless.

Which is a problem - at least in film. You don't wan't a realistic looking image.

I was actually pleasantly surprised when I learned the P4K’s Gen 4 color science resulted in a more saturated Log Profile. As much as I love the look of the OG Pocket, I was never very good at coloring it without completely relying on one of Captain Hook’s LUTS. It seems the newer color science will lend itself to an easily gradeable image... for me anyway.

I don’t know if I love the pristine image quite yet but I can appreciate the clean palette concept behind it.

But again I still want to see some 1080p, 24p ProRes. Since the OG Pocket was sometimes referred to as a poor man’s Alexa, I’m curious to see if the 1080p gives me what I feel is missing from the original.

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1 hour ago, mercer said:

The ProRes has very little moire anyway. And I’m sure the OG look is easily obtainable with the P4K but for less than $500 used... plus the highlights are better on the OG.

I don’t have a need for 4K for at least another year and I’m hoping ML will help me out when that time comes. If not, a used P4K (or fire sale) will be my next main camera. But I have a feeling another company will have Raw capabilities by this time next year... am hoping it might be Olympus.  

It will be very interesting if other companies adopt Blackmagic Raw.  That will open things up massively.

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2 minutes ago, MattH said:

It will be very interesting if other companies adopt Blackmagic Raw.  That will open things up massively.

Well, since Olympus and BlackMagic have a common link with John Brawley, I’m kinda hoping he may set up some kind of licensing deal between BM and Olympus for BRaw... then it can truly be called BRaw(ley)

2 minutes ago, Jim Giberti said:

Actually they're not.

They look like they are to me. But it doesn’t really matter... it seems kinda counterproductive to argue that the P4K is way better than another great camera from the same company. 

@Jim Giberti I just realized that you’re the guy that made one of my favorite Micro videos... the horses in the snow.

I have trust that the P4K is a great camera but I can’t honestly say that I have seen any videos from it yet that is better than that BMMCC video of yours.

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12 hours ago, kye said:

From what I understand it took a number of firmware updates to get the BMPCC to where it is now.  I'd imagine the newer one will be the same?

 If so, just think about it like you're buying a software subscription with free upgrades :)


The BMPCC had to start from a fairly low starting point, it could leverage some of the early work done with the BMCC, but that was all. Thus the original BMPCC still had a long long way to go. 

So while I expect the BMPCC4K will indeed improve with time, I don't expect it to have such a radical leap forward as the original BMPCC did. As the BMPCC4K has the benefit of being able to take advantage of all their years of software development on their other cameras, and the BMPCC4K is able to to start off from Day One as a much more fully developed camera (relatively speaking). 

 

12 hours ago, Emanuel said:

 

David is surely a reputable voice not connected with BMD as much as RED : D or any other manufacturer. I see him as brand agnostic as me, I guess : )

I don't believe shills are coming here, not BMD type, I think. My beef with them is just related to business policies and their obsession with broadcast market. Even though, they struggle to move on. Just not as quick as a few people, myself included, would like. I am their supporter from day one. I believe and know they could care about us outside better than they actually do. Too stuck on their organization chain. It is necessary to listen everyone. That's what I'd much appreciate to see from their own : -)

Even because there's no other Pocket 4K out there. With RAW acquisition as for instance amongst other Goodies?! Where...? ; -)

 

What obsession with the broadcast market by BMD?

Yes they make a lot of products for the broadcast market (such as ATEM etc etc), but they've done this for years, long before getting into camera manufacturing themselves. And the money and expertise they get from this is what helped allow them to build the BMCC! 


But when it comes to the cameras themselves, out of the many models they've put out, they've only made, what... three dedicated to the broadcast market? (Studio Camera / Micro Studio Camera / URSA Broadcast)

 

11 hours ago, Snowfun said:

Expert (often cynically defined as someone who has been doing it badly for a long time)


So very very true. 

 

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10 hours ago, Oliver Daniel said:

While there's people pointing a finger at Blackmagic, the big boys put out the most dismal, boring and often unflattering "launch videos" you're ever bound to see. What happens in the creative process?? - "Hey - we've got a $10k camera to sell here. Let's shoot some trees, houses and people walking around. Throw on that Yoga music you like." 

 


With the exception of.... Fujifilm! They've done a darn good job with their latest release

Also RED often puts out fairly slick release videos too. 

 

7 hours ago, sobrietyrefund said:

Do you think this battery would be a good option to power the Pocket 4k?


I'm quite partial to using my BP-U30 (and BP-U60 batteries) to powering my original BMPCC, the check light on the battery is handy to have. 
 

3 hours ago, deezid said:

I was kinda shocked after shooting with the RED Gemini last week at how clean and realistic the image looks using IPP2.
Without some crazy post production it won't look cinematic at all - even though it has some amazing dynamic range. It's just way too clean. Older RED cameras didn't suffer from this "problem".

Same happens with the Pocket 4K. You'll get better dynamic range, no more noise, very natural color - an overall way more realistic looking image which is almost flawless.

Which is a problem - at least in film. You don't wan't a realistic looking image.


Oh no, it is too good!

 

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2 hours ago, mercer said:

 I just realized that you’re the guy that made one of my favorite Micro videos... the horses in the snow.

Thanks.

That was in the first hour or so after the Micro arrived. I was still charging the battery and looked out the studio window at the farm and saw the snow falling so I stuck the battery in and ran out to the pasture to grab a few shots of some of our critters.

Still love the image from the Micro.

Think of the P4K as that on steroids as far as a camera is concerned. The image itself is a bit more detailed (in 1080).

I would have gladly paid the same to have the Micro sensor with the new P4k body/interface.

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3 hours ago, IronFilm said:

The BMPCC had to start from a fairly low starting point, it could leverage some of the early work done with the BMCC, but that was all. Thus the original BMPCC still had a long long way to go. 

So while I expect the BMPCC4K will indeed improve with time, I don't expect it to have such a radical leap forward as the original BMPCC did. As the BMPCC4K has the benefit of being able to take advantage of all their years of software development on their other cameras, and the BMPCC4K is able to to start off from Day One as a much more fully developed camera (relatively speaking). 

Makes total sense :)

3 hours ago, IronFilm said:

Oh no, it is too good!

Luckily the internet is awash with people that can't shoot or grade very well!

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4 hours ago, Jim Giberti said:

Still love the image from the Micro.

Think of the P4K as that on steroids as far as a camera is concerned. The image itself is a bit more detailed (in 1080).

I would have gladly paid the same to have the Micro sensor with the new P4k body/interface.

I think this is the concern from pocket and micro users that the P4k doesnt have that BMPCC factor that made that camera amazing.

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