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Blackmagic Pocket Cinema Camera 4K

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1 hour ago, webrunner5 said:

Oh I can't deny that. But if a person is trying to made money at doing this stuff I don't see how anyone can buy a PK4 over a GH5, GH5s. The PK4 is just going to be too damn slow, clunky, fussy to use on paid gigs.

And you sure as Hell are not taking pictures on the PK4.

This is a moving images capturing machine. If anyone cares for a hybrid camera is in the wrong thread. GH5S isn't a good photo taking machine either, but it takes pictures for sure. I thought this is a hard fact clearly understood by everyone already.

My hybrid cameras do ok 120fps and in 4 years I have used it just once. My favorite "money making tool", C100 do not either.

I used to work in advertising operating specialized high speed cameras, and as YOU mentioned on a little while ago, can't stand slow motion videos at all anymore! In other specilized circumstances we used to rent the FS700, as you already mentioned!

Also the AF in my pro video work consists of less than 5% (maybe less than 3%!), even though I work with very good hybrid AF and C100mkII/C300mkII cameras most of the time. 

The GH AF is not something to talk about, not a strong Panasonic selling point anyway.

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EOSHD Pro Color for Sony cameras EOSHD Pro LOG for Sony CamerasEOSHD C-LOG and Film Profiles for All Canon DSLRs
59 minutes ago, webrunner5 said:

How many people Still have a BMPCC on here. Damn few I bet, and if they do have it they use it less and less.

exactly the opposite 🙂  I bought BMPCC recently and I prefer it before my GH5 for DR and Color

BMPCC for shooting people document, music video, film (BMPCC will not forgive you, you have to learn the filmmaking craft, nothing slowmo YEP 🙂 

last work https://youtu.be/Pk_Qyuy_r5M

I use GH5 for shooting event, wedding, (Run&Gun situation)

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6 minutes ago, tonysss said:

exactly the opposite 🙂  I bought BMPCC recently and I prefer it before my GH5 for DR and Color

BMPCC for shooting people document, music video, film (BMPCC will not forgive you, you have to learn the filmmaking craft, nothing slowmo YEP 🙂 

last work https://youtu.be/Pk_Qyuy_r5M

I use GH5 for shooting event, wedding, (Run&Gun situation)

Great footage by the way. They are an amazing camera no doubt. I am sure in the right hands the PK4 can be also.

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6 minutes ago, tonysss said:

exactly the opposite 🙂  I bought BMPCC recently and I prefer it before my GH5 for DR and Color

BMPCC for shooting people document, music video, film (BMPCC will not forgive you, you have to learn the filmmaking craft, nothing slowmo YEP 🙂 

last work https://youtu.be/Pk_Qyuy_r5M

I use GH5 for shooting event, wedding, (Run&Gun situation)

Better looking footage than any of the BMPCC4K I have seen. 

I recently rebought the pocket as well. You need an external battery and the IR Cut filter, but once outfitted, the camera is really excellent. 

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14 hours ago, jbCinC_12 said:

My feelings exactly.  The 60/120p slow-mo is cool and all, but what about the 24p, 30p?  How about showing what it offers in 1080p.  One can only hope.

 

14 hours ago, webrunner5 said:

Does Anyone shoot Anything in normal speeds anymore? Jesus what is the deal with trying to see if Anything is worth a crap on a camera at 120p Slo Mo. Sam Peckinpah is alive and well.

I uploaded a few ProRes 1080p 24fps in this thread last week. 

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To be fair. That truck is the result of stacking a number of photos, all with different exposures, to get the HDR effect. 

If you think the P4K frame looks like that, it is a compliment as 1 frame from this camera holds a comparable amount of info / dr as multiple frames from another camera.  

How you use that much info is up to you.

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As metadata determines display and native ISO determines exposure you can have usable exposure (not clipping) and unsalable display (clipping). You can’t trust your display when shooting RAW but you can trust Zebras with RAW to show you if you are clipping regardless of what the ISO is set to on the Pocket 4k. I assume you can trust display if you set it to a native ISO (400 or 3200).

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4 hours ago, MattH said:

The crop is defined by the scan speed of the sensor.    120 fps means a frame every 8.33 milliseconds.  If the entire sensor cant be scanned in that amount of time then full sensor readout 120 fps is physically impossible.  The two options then are either to line skip the whole sensor or to do a full readout of a smaller proportion of the sensor.   The pocket4k has clearly opted for the latter.   I doubt the GH5 or GH5s have readout speeds of less than 8.33 milliseconds so if they have full sensor 120 fps then it is probably line skipped.

I cannot, for the life of me, think why someone would need a 120 fps slow motion shot of a still detailed wide city-scape like that in which 60fps wasn't adequate.   If you are doing 120 fps slow motion it is usually of something that is moving and thus detail is less important.   If detail is really important then simply play 60 fps at half speed.  In sports broadcasts they often achieve the slow motion by playing each frame about 3 times, and that looks smooth enough.   The original pocket didn't even have 60fps.  To me it just seems a silly ask to expect 4k detail 120fps full mft sensor from a camera of this price.

The thing is - if it can do a 4K/UHD 60p readout. Then it should be possible to do a cropped 1080p240 readout as well ( haha being demanding on my side. Maybe it is saved for a future firmware update )

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16 minutes ago, dslnc said:

The thing is - if it can do a 4K/UHD 60p readout. Then it should be possible to do a cropped 1080p240 readout as well ( haha being demanding on my side. Maybe it is saved for a future firmware update )

Hmm.  Maybe it cant scan partial lines?    If the scan duration was proportional to the imaging area then yes it would be able to do 120p at a larger crop than 2x and be able to do 240p at 2x.

So Im thinking the scan speed must be proportional only to the number of lines being scanned.

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5 hours ago, webrunner5 said:

There is a reason it is Half the price. It has Half the the features of a GH5, GH5s.

It doesn't have half the features of the GH5/GH5s,  It has different features. Taking the photo side of the GH5 out of the equation, I would say the pocket has more features for video. If you need a hybrid camera obviously the P4K is the wrong choice.

 

5 hours ago, webrunner5 said:

You are going to have 3 thousand dollars or more tied up in one to make it really work.

I really don't understand this way of thinking. When shooting video, the GH5s only really has AF and a tilt-able screen up it's sleeve compared to the Pocket4k (and better battery life). Yes, AF is handy for shooting home videos, and yes, I wish the Pocket4k had a tiltable screen but to call it a useless camera is pretty silly. I've used it in a run n gun situation with zero accessories and more than happy with the results. How do you get to $3000? Add a $100 monopod, a $180 AndyCine a6 and an NP-F battery (the andycine can power the P4K) or 4 more LP-E6N batteries and you have a run n gun package that will be better than any IBIS can provide. A monopod is the most underrated bit of gear by videographers. Quick to set up, lightweight, easy to carry, versatile... and better than any IBIS or OS.

While AF is nice for home videos, if you want to step up your video game, the sooner you learn to focus manually and ditch stop relying on AF the better. 

5 hours ago, webrunner5 said:

Right out of the box it is pretty useless for a modern camera today.

Are people today born with eyes that can't see, or hands that can't turn a focus barrel? Are they all born with hand tremor? Is a camera without AF or IBIS really useless in todays world? Maybe according to you, but I'm managing to use cameras from many different manufacturers that don't have either features pretty well. In relation to IBIS, while IBIS is nice for Home videos, for anything else, i'd still recommend using a monopod with or without IBIS. Are the X-T3 or GH5s useless today because they lack IBIS? No, people will make great videos with both. 

 

5 hours ago, webrunner5 said:

And don't give me the ProRes crap. I can buy a 200 dollar Ninja Star and get ProRes on any camera that has a clean HDMI out..

So, you're starting to add accessories? Again, I can easily add the Andycine a6 to the Pocket4K to get the tiltable screen. Speaking of adding accessories, you don't need to add any to get good audio into the P4K which you do for the GH series. So your GH5 has already gone up in price by adding the ninja star and Battery Grip. Talking about the Ninja Star, you do realise it's 1080p only right? To fairly compare to the Pocket4k you need to add the NinjaV which is $599USD. Your GH5 with NinjaV and battery grip to get audio now costs $2946USD but has the advantage of AF. The Pocket 4K with monopod and Andycine a6 cost around $1700. Will you be editing your videos? If so, you will need to add another $299 to get resolve for your GH5 making it closer to $3250.

 

5 hours ago, webrunner5 said:

I bet most people on here had the BMPCC at one time and got rid of it. Sure it was a fabulous camera output wise. But it was a Total pain in the ass to use. And the PK4 is not going to be much different. How many people Still have a BMPCC on here. Damn few I bet, and if they do have it they use it less and less.

The P4K is far easier to use than the OG Pocket you really can't compare. Far better screen and ergonomics make it possible to use handheld. The OG Pocket was way too small to be used in the hand. You really can't put the two cameras in the same category or draw any similarities to them. When I switched to Fuji for stills, I really enjoyed using the camera and this made me want to use it more. In terms of video, so far the Pocket has done the same thing for me. Small package, un fussy menus and a great screen that reward's you instantly when looking at nice shot's. I just want to use it.  

 

5 hours ago, webrunner5 said:

Hey no doubt it is going to have great output if you are good at getting it and can grade well. But that is not going to be a speed demon at doing it. I just find it would work for me, but I just don't see it fitting into most peoples workflow. More of a toy to be honest for most. But nothing wrong with that. I would imagine we all have plenty of toys among us.

It's actually less of a toy than most mirrorless cameras and I'm finding it a joy to use professional. It's far quicker to change settings on it than my X-T2 or the A7 series cameras that I have used as B-Cams before. It's by far more of a proper video tool compared to a hybrid but that's just my opinion. The workflow is not hard, you can bake LUTS in if you need quick turnaround or just use the provided BMD Rec709. I don't see how it's any slower. And if you shoot LOG on the GH5, then that still needs grading in post. 

For anyone reading this, camera brand aside, if you think IBIS and AF are going to make you shoot like a pro and some how magically make your images 'cinematic' ...they won't.

'Out of the box it's useless' ....'need to spend $3000 to make it work'....... 'it's a toy'. Considering you haven't used the camera yet, these are all pretty biased and inaccurate statements that I'd expect to hear out of a Panasonic rep 😉

 

 

 

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52 minutes ago, A_Urquhart said:

It doesn't have half the features of the GH5/GH5s,  It has different features. Taking the photo side of the GH5 out of the equation, I would say the pocket has more features for video. If you need a hybrid camera obviously the P4K is the wrong choice.

 

I really don't understand this way of thinking. When shooting video, the GH5s only really has AF and a tilt-able screen up it's sleeve compared to the Pocket4k (and better battery life). Yes, AF is handy for shooting home videos, and yes, I wish the Pocket4k had a tiltable screen but to call it a useless camera is pretty silly. I've used it in a run n gun situation with zero accessories and more than happy with the results. How do you get to $3000? Add a $100 monopod, a $180 AndyCine a6 and an NP-F battery (the andycine can power the P4K) or 4 more LP-E6N batteries and you have a run n gun package that will be better than any IBIS can provide. A monopod is the most underrated bit of gear by videographers. Quick to set up, lightweight, easy to carry, versatile... and better than any IBIS or OS.

While AF is nice for home videos, if you want to step up your video game, the sooner you learn to focus manually and ditch stop relying on AF the better. 

Are people today born with eyes that can't see, or hands that can't turn a focus barrel? Are they all born with hand tremor? Is a camera without AF or IBIS really useless in todays world? Maybe according to you, but I'm managing to use cameras from many different manufacturers that don't have either features pretty well. In relation to IBIS, while IBIS is nice for Home videos, for anything else, i'd still recommend using a monopod with or without IBIS. Are the X-T3 or GH5s useless today because they lack IBIS? No, people will make great videos with both. 

 

So, you're starting to add accessories? Again, I can easily add the Andycine a6 to the Pocket4K to get the tiltable screen. Speaking of adding accessories, you don't need to add any to get good audio into the P4K which you do for the GH series. So your GH5 has already gone up in price by adding the ninja star and Battery Grip. Talking about the Ninja Star, you do realise it's 1080p only right? To fairly compare to the Pocket4k you need to add the NinjaV which is $599USD. Your GH5 with NinjaV and battery grip to get audio now costs $2946USD but has the advantage of AF. The Pocket 4K with monopod and Andycine a6 cost around $1700. Will you be editing your videos? If so, you will need to add another $299 to get resolve for your GH5 making it closer to $3250.

 

The P4K is far easier to use than the OG Pocket you really can't compare. Far better screen and ergonomics make it possible to use handheld. The OG Pocket was way too small to be used in the hand. You really can't put the two cameras in the same category or draw any similarities to them. When I switched to Fuji for stills, I really enjoyed using the camera and this made me want to use it more. In terms of video, so far the Pocket has done the same thing for me. Small package, un fussy menus and a great screen that reward's you instantly when looking at nice shot's. I just want to use it.  

 

It's actually less of a toy than most mirrorless cameras and I'm finding it a joy to use professional. It's far quicker to change settings on it than my X-T2 or the A7 series cameras that I have used as B-Cams before. It's by far more of a proper video tool compared to a hybrid but that's just my opinion. The workflow is not hard, you can bake LUTS in if you need quick turnaround or just use the provided BMD Rec709. I don't see how it's any slower. And if you shoot LOG on the GH5, then that still needs grading in post. 

For anyone reading this, camera brand aside, if you think IBIS and AF are going to make you shoot like a pro and some how magically make your images 'cinematic' ...they won't.

'Out of the box it's useless' ....'need to spend $3000 to make it work'....... 'it's a toy'. Considering you haven't used the camera yet, these are all pretty biased and inaccurate statements that I'd expect to hear out of a Panasonic rep 😉

 

 

 

It is not about being a Pro, it is about making money. You can blow all the shit you want. I haven't heard a damn thing you have Ever posted on here that amounts to a hill of beans. I could care less about your opinion. That probably IS the reason they won't let you on DVXuser.com. Oh I am on there by the way. Have a nice day.

Oh I don't even own a Panasonic camera or a lens of theirs. Or a BM product. No dog in the fight.

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7 hours ago, webrunner5 said:

Yeah but what is crazy is the GH5s can shoot up to 192fps without cropping the sensor, anything above that up to 240fps it has a slight sensor crop. But up to 240fps! Impressive. So it is not the sensor in the PK4, it is a sensor processing problem. Too much data to handle I guess with it''s Codec.

I don't get why there is so much dislike for the GH5s on this site. It does just about everything you could want. You can put a Speedbooster on it and be a bit larger than s35. So it is a modern day, even better for slo mo camera than a Sony FS700 in a tiny package compared to it. And used they are damn near the same money. And FS700 Color Science is pretty damn terrible to be honest.

Because the people who always shoot manual think that the AF is not up to Canon's standards.

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10 minutes ago, webrunner5 said:

It is not about being a Pro, it is about making money. You can blow all the shit you want. I haven't heard a damn thing you have Ever posted on here that amounts to a hill of beans. I could care less about your opinion. That probably IS the reason they won't let you on DVXuser.com. Oh I am on there by the way. Have a nice day.

Very constructive....and why the aggression?

Blow all the shit you want? Unlike your comments, I'd like to think mine are quite constructive  . Your totalitarian comment's are completely unproven. Plenty of good quality videos are made without IBIS or AF. Simple......as.....that!

And in terms of making money, i'm finding it easier getting the Pocket4k on gigs as a BCam than the mirrorless DSLR's Ive used previously. Producers rather a camera that shoot's ProRes, and has Timecode capability etc. In the same way that producers prefer my FS7 with the Timecode back to an FS7 without it 

 

I am on DVX user by the way. It's BMCuser that I can't post on purely because the mods haven't activated the permissions yet. They are apparently quite slow at doing it.

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Just now, A_Urquhart said:

Very constructive....and why the aggression?

Blow all the shit you want? Unlike your comments, I'd like to think mine are quite constructive  . Your totalitarian comment's are completely unproven. Plenty of good quality videos are ade without IBIS or AF. Simple......as.....that!

 

I am on DVX user by the way. It's BMCuser that I can't post on. 

Oh I am on that also. And I will try harder to like you. You made some good, valid points. 😜

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17 minutes ago, webrunner5 said:

Oh I am on that also. And I will try harder to like you. You made some good, valid points. 😜

Spare me....usually people resort to aggression like that when they have nothing valid to say. 

19 minutes ago, Snuff said:

Great review: super audio test and comparison with Ursa and Old Pocket.

 

Thanks Snuff but this guy must work for BMD as he's not hating on the camera enough 😉

Sorry, couldn't resist!

Moving on, while brief, It was nice to see the P4K side by side with the UMP and OG pocket. The OG pocket definitely didn't seem to have any 'mojo' in the shot provided!

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