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I'm not going to say "Its only 11 days to go until the 3rd of September" but, well, it is only 11 days to go until the 3rd of September.

Are BM going to drop a big surprise and stick to that date or is there anything even semi-official regarding an actual new date?

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Well, officially, they never said anything would be released on the 3rd. B&H said that, and removed it when people noticed. That said, I believe BM would know by now whether they're still releasing in September or not. 

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18 minutes ago, Anaconda_ said:

Well, officially, they never said anything would be released on the 3rd. B&H said that, and removed it when people noticed.

Ah...that makes sense.

Thanks

 

 

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6 hours ago, IronFilm said:

That is true right now (well, at least it is for many people). 

And thus I feel this is a perfectly reasonable statement to make. 

To recommend to someone the GH5S as their "best" choice (but then to make a small side note: but keep an eye out for the BMPCC4K! But only if you have patience to wait)

That makes no sense at all as they both release next month!

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7 hours ago, Myownfriend said:

Sure it's raw. If my understanding of the Ursa Mini Pro's sensor is up to snuff, it's taking two 11-bit values from two different gain circuits or something then averages them into a 14 bit values. Those values are then logarithmically stored as 12-bit values and THAT becomes the output DNG. Pixel binning would be a form of averaging as well so if the former is acceptable RAW then so is the latter.

Actually two 11 bit values turns into a 22 bit value, which is then processed as 16bit lin internally, not 14bit. It’s then log encoded as a 12bit once it’s encoded into a DNG or ProRes. 

Alexa is the same, but two 12bit values turned into a 24bit value then down to 16bit. 

I’ve long felt bit depth is the most important part of the digital imaging chain, not resolution.

JB

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6 hours ago, kye said:

@Myownfriend @IronFilm Isn't RAW prior to debayering?  If so, isn't pixel binning something that happens after debayering?  or does the averaging only occur between photo sites of the same colours?

From what I've read,  pixel binning is something that happens during the de-bayering process so, in most cases it will only be used when recording to debayered format in-camera. I'm not sure if there's a way to pixel bin and get a result that looks like bayered data so file size would probably be somewhere between 4K file sizes and 1080p crop sizes. Either way, that really shouldn't disqualify it from being considered RAW. It would still be 12 or 10 bit with no baked in color temperature, sharpening, or digital ISO changes just a loss in spatial data.

RAW is kind of weird term because it can't necessarily require that the information be bayered data since some sensors don't even use bayer patterns and it can't be required that image recorded be completely un-altered sensor data since we accept lossy compressed RAW and logarithmic storage of 16-bit linear values to be RAW as well.
 

3 hours ago, John Brawley said:

Actually two 11 bit values turns into a 22 bit value, which is then processed as 16bit lin internally, not 14bit. It’s then log encoded as a 12bit once it’s encoded into a DNG or ProRes. 

Alexa is the same, but two 12bit values turned into a 24bit value then down to 16bit. 

I’ve long felt bit depth is the most important part of the digital imaging chain, not resolution.

JB

My bad. I meant 16-bit and I was kind of being short with the process going from two 11-bit values into the linear values. Thanks for clarifying though.

I agree with you about bit-depth. That's really where all of that editability in post comes from that people love about RAW.

I think one of the best ways to sort of show the importance of bit-depth would be to think about things as a black and white image. An 8-bit per channel image in color may create 16.7 million colors but in black and white, you just have 256 shades at your disposal. Now imagine all the places that would fall apart in a 4096x2160 image. Then remember that, as a color image goes closer and closer to white or black (or the closer it approaches pure red, green, or blue), it becomes more and more similar to that black and white image and it really begins to make sense why it's so impossible to recover detail in shadows and highlights in 8-bit footage without banding.

Since you can represent 4096 unique values in 12 bits though, it's far less possible to create a gradient in a 4K DCI image that has banding and every pixel can have a value different from it's neighbors which allows you to pull detail from highlights and shadows. The exception to this of course would be if you're recording an image with virtually no contrast.

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5 hours ago, BTM_Pix said:

Ah...that makes sense.

Thanks

 

 

That's what I heard too. They targeting 30th September at 23:59:59

 

A promise if a promise, apparently. 

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2 hours ago, sanveer said:

That's what I heard too. They targeting 30th September at 23:59:59

 

A promise if a promise, apparently. 

Since they're in Aus, they could actually do 1st Oct and (most of) their customers would still get it in Sept haha!

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6 hours ago, John Brawley said:

 

I’ve long felt bit depth is the most important part of the digital imaging chain, not resolution.

JB

This. 

What good is 4k, 6k when you have ugly banding or other artifacts from low bit depth codecs. 

Bit depth and DR influences nice natural looking images far more than resolution. 

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8 hours ago, Myownfriend said:

From what I've read,  pixel binning is something that happens during the de-bayering process so, in most cases it will only be used when recording to debayered format in-camera. I'm not sure if there's a way to pixel bin and get a result that looks like bayered data so file size would probably be somewhere between 4K file sizes and 1080p crop sizes. Either way, that really shouldn't disqualify it from being considered RAW. It would still be 12 or 10 bit with no baked in color temperature, sharpening, or digital ISO changes just a loss in spatial data.

RAW is kind of weird term because it can't necessarily require that the information be bayered data since some sensors don't even use bayer patterns and it can't be required that image recorded be completely un-altered sensor data since we accept lossy compressed RAW and logarithmic storage of 16-bit linear values to be RAW as well.

Thanks - that makes sense.  I guess from that perspective there's a considerable grey area between completely pure full sensor read-outs and completely processed and compressed data.

I guess from this perspective it's like many other things where we just need to evaluate it both objectively and subjectively like we already do.  I wouldn't care if they used shamanic runes and astrology processing inside if it gives a lovely image! :)

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On ‎8‎/‎23‎/‎2018 at 7:13 AM, John Brawley said:

Actually two 11 bit values turns into a 22 bit value, which is then processed as 16bit lin internally, not 14bit. It’s then log encoded as a 12bit once it’s encoded into a DNG or ProRes. 

Alexa is the same, but two 12bit values turned into a 24bit value then down to 16bit. 

I’ve long felt bit depth is the most important part of the digital imaging chain, not resolution.

JB

Really? Two 11 bit values turns into 12 bits actually. It can't be more precise than that.

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From Arri website.

"The Dual Gain Architecture simultaneously provides two separate read-out paths from each pixel with different amplification. The first path contains the regular, highly amplified signal. The second path contains a signal with lower amplification, to capture the information that is clipped in the first path. Both paths feed into the camera's A/D converters, delivering a 14 bit image for each path. These images are then combined into a single 16 bit high dynamic range image".

 

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Thanks @webrunner5..  @Mokara Never underestimate what very smart people can do with digital signal processing.  In audio, where CD and the standard delivery formats are 16-bit audio but very common sources of sound are hugely more dynamic and have to be crazily processed before recording (eg, an orchestra), audio engineers have managed to develop very sophisticated ways to dither and add noise so that the performance of 16-bit is stretched considerably.

It's almost a black art in some ways, but the results speak for themselves on a good system.  I'm not sure how much of that body of knowledge is applicable to video but there's definitely a lot of experience to draw from.

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Oh I would argue Rec.709, BT.709, which has been steadily updated from the original Rec Rec. BT.601-5 in 1995, is an amazing color space for what little DR it has. It just goes to show what "very smart people can do with digital signal processing". It is surprisingly pretty darn good looking even on a 4K TV. On a small screen in our home less is required than most people think.

Oh no doubt Rec.2020 will be the Standard in the near future, and we will wonder how we could have watched stuff in Rec.709. ?

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