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Blackmagic Pocket Cinema Camera 4K


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I fail to see what preorder status has got anything to do with which monitor is best for my "needs" or anyone else's for that matter. The poster did not say he needed a monitor right away. I would absolutely recommend waiting for the Ninja V.

That's no different from saying the P4K is on preorder at BH right now, so the best camera for everyone's needs is the GH5s. :) 

1 hour ago, IronFilm said:

That is just progress, new better products coming out every year. 

But I mean, is it even shipping yet? I think maybe not, is still in pre order status on B&H, which means for right now the BMD VA is still arguably the "best" option you can buy today

 

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2 hours ago, IronFilm said:

Pixel binning isn't really raw now is it. As that is processing being done. 

Sure it's raw. If my understanding of the Ursa Mini Pro's sensor is up to snuff, it's taking two 11-bit values from two different gain circuits or something then averages them into a 14 bit values. Those values are then logarithmically stored as 12-bit values and THAT becomes the output DNG. Pixel binning would be a form of averaging as well so if the former is acceptable RAW then so is the latter.

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2 hours ago, jonpais said:

That's no different from saying the P4K is on preorder at BH right now, so the best camera for everyone's needs is the GH5s. :) 

That is true right now (well, at least it is for many people). 

And thus I feel this is a perfectly reasonable statement to make. 

To recommend to someone the GH5S as their "best" choice (but then to make a small side note: but keep an eye out for the BMPCC4K! But only if you have patience to wait)

16 minutes ago, Myownfriend said:

Sure it's raw. If my understanding of the Ursa Mini Pro's sensor is up to snuff, it's taking two 11-bit values from two different gain circuits or something then averages them into a 14 bit values. Those values are then logarithmically stored as 12-bit values and THAT becomes the output DNG. Pixel binning would be a form of averaging as well so if the former is acceptable RAW then so is the latter.

Heh, I'm willing to give it is "raw". Sometimes what is/isn't raw can be a bit loose with the terminology. 

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I'm not going to say "Its only 11 days to go until the 3rd of September" but, well, it is only 11 days to go until the 3rd of September.

Are BM going to drop a big surprise and stick to that date or is there anything even semi-official regarding an actual new date?

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6 hours ago, IronFilm said:

That is true right now (well, at least it is for many people). 

And thus I feel this is a perfectly reasonable statement to make. 

To recommend to someone the GH5S as their "best" choice (but then to make a small side note: but keep an eye out for the BMPCC4K! But only if you have patience to wait)

That makes no sense at all as they both release next month!

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7 hours ago, Myownfriend said:

Sure it's raw. If my understanding of the Ursa Mini Pro's sensor is up to snuff, it's taking two 11-bit values from two different gain circuits or something then averages them into a 14 bit values. Those values are then logarithmically stored as 12-bit values and THAT becomes the output DNG. Pixel binning would be a form of averaging as well so if the former is acceptable RAW then so is the latter.

Actually two 11 bit values turns into a 22 bit value, which is then processed as 16bit lin internally, not 14bit. It’s then log encoded as a 12bit once it’s encoded into a DNG or ProRes. 

Alexa is the same, but two 12bit values turned into a 24bit value then down to 16bit. 

I’ve long felt bit depth is the most important part of the digital imaging chain, not resolution.

JB

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6 hours ago, kye said:

@Myownfriend @IronFilm Isn't RAW prior to debayering?  If so, isn't pixel binning something that happens after debayering?  or does the averaging only occur between photo sites of the same colours?

From what I've read,  pixel binning is something that happens during the de-bayering process so, in most cases it will only be used when recording to debayered format in-camera. I'm not sure if there's a way to pixel bin and get a result that looks like bayered data so file size would probably be somewhere between 4K file sizes and 1080p crop sizes. Either way, that really shouldn't disqualify it from being considered RAW. It would still be 12 or 10 bit with no baked in color temperature, sharpening, or digital ISO changes just a loss in spatial data.

RAW is kind of weird term because it can't necessarily require that the information be bayered data since some sensors don't even use bayer patterns and it can't be required that image recorded be completely un-altered sensor data since we accept lossy compressed RAW and logarithmic storage of 16-bit linear values to be RAW as well.
 

3 hours ago, John Brawley said:

Actually two 11 bit values turns into a 22 bit value, which is then processed as 16bit lin internally, not 14bit. It’s then log encoded as a 12bit once it’s encoded into a DNG or ProRes. 

Alexa is the same, but two 12bit values turned into a 24bit value then down to 16bit. 

I’ve long felt bit depth is the most important part of the digital imaging chain, not resolution.

JB

My bad. I meant 16-bit and I was kind of being short with the process going from two 11-bit values into the linear values. Thanks for clarifying though.

I agree with you about bit-depth. That's really where all of that editability in post comes from that people love about RAW.

I think one of the best ways to sort of show the importance of bit-depth would be to think about things as a black and white image. An 8-bit per channel image in color may create 16.7 million colors but in black and white, you just have 256 shades at your disposal. Now imagine all the places that would fall apart in a 4096x2160 image. Then remember that, as a color image goes closer and closer to white or black (or the closer it approaches pure red, green, or blue), it becomes more and more similar to that black and white image and it really begins to make sense why it's so impossible to recover detail in shadows and highlights in 8-bit footage without banding.

Since you can represent 4096 unique values in 12 bits though, it's far less possible to create a gradient in a 4K DCI image that has banding and every pixel can have a value different from it's neighbors which allows you to pull detail from highlights and shadows. The exception to this of course would be if you're recording an image with virtually no contrast.

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6 hours ago, John Brawley said:

 

I’ve long felt bit depth is the most important part of the digital imaging chain, not resolution.

JB

This. 

What good is 4k, 6k when you have ugly banding or other artifacts from low bit depth codecs. 

Bit depth and DR influences nice natural looking images far more than resolution. 

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8 hours ago, Myownfriend said:

From what I've read,  pixel binning is something that happens during the de-bayering process so, in most cases it will only be used when recording to debayered format in-camera. I'm not sure if there's a way to pixel bin and get a result that looks like bayered data so file size would probably be somewhere between 4K file sizes and 1080p crop sizes. Either way, that really shouldn't disqualify it from being considered RAW. It would still be 12 or 10 bit with no baked in color temperature, sharpening, or digital ISO changes just a loss in spatial data.

RAW is kind of weird term because it can't necessarily require that the information be bayered data since some sensors don't even use bayer patterns and it can't be required that image recorded be completely un-altered sensor data since we accept lossy compressed RAW and logarithmic storage of 16-bit linear values to be RAW as well.

Thanks - that makes sense.  I guess from that perspective there's a considerable grey area between completely pure full sensor read-outs and completely processed and compressed data.

I guess from this perspective it's like many other things where we just need to evaluate it both objectively and subjectively like we already do.  I wouldn't care if they used shamanic runes and astrology processing inside if it gives a lovely image! :)

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