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Blackmagic Pocket Cinema Camera 4K

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On 5/21/2018 at 4:45 PM, jonpais said:

who is we? I use them all the time.

I'll put my hand up too and say I never use AF and only sometimes use IS.  IS is great on static shots, but problematic on moving / tracking shots.  Just like gimbals, with many "tells" for bad operating.

But I'm not everyone.

JB

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EOSHD Pro Color for Sony cameras EOSHD Pro LOG for Sony CamerasEOSHD C-LOG and Film Profiles for All Canon DSLRs

Everytime I get some camera GAS and start to pour of the alternatives, I realize just how damn small the Pocket 4K is!

There isn't a camera like it for its size. And price wise it makes you second guess actually buying that camera you rent all the time.

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On 5/22/2018 at 6:52 PM, John Brawley said:

I'll put my hand up too and say I never use AF and only sometimes use IS.  IS is great on static shots, but problematic on moving / tracking shots.  Just like gimbals, with many "tells" for bad operating.

But I'm not everyone.

JB

IBIS worked well enough for your video of Hula expert Roxanna shot with Olympus. At the time you had this to say:

One of the main reasons I like shooting Olympus so much in this platform is that their stabiliser is really world class.  And the best thing is that because it’s built into the body itself, any lens you mount on their can be turned into a stabilised lens.  Any vintage lens, and cinema lens I happen to adapt.  Or the wonderful new APO primes from SLR Magic.

Curiously, no mention at all of IBIS only being good for locked off shots - if that were the case, it would be of no use whatsoever. Unfortunately, mirrorless cameras are more prone to jitters than heavy cinema cameras, so IBIS comes in pretty handy. It also helps enormously to iron out the wriggles in gimbal shots, as demonstrated in numerous videos online. 

Which is the reason I like IBIS so much - it turns my Veydras into stabilized lenses that can be handheld at eqiuvalent focal lengths of 238 mm, allowing me to shoot in places where a tripod or gimbal would either be forbidden or attract too much attention.

Just in case anyone misunderstands, I could care less whether the Batcam’s got IBIS or not. And I’m thrilled it’s not going to have functioning AF-C either, because, as Mr Glencairn rightly points out, true cinematographers don’t need that shit.

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BM just cleared up the cropping thing for me. I was under the impression HD 100fps would not be cropped, but 120fps would be. I thought I heard a rep say that, but according to this, I was wrong. I wanted to share for anyone else who thought the same.5b07996935db8_ScreenShot2018-05-25at07_03_26.thumb.png.9a78d8fe37287f649fc82da003a51c89.png

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7 hours ago, jonpais said:

IBIS worked well enough for your video of Hula expert Roxanna shot with Olympus. At the time you had this to say:

One of the main reasons I like shooting Olympus so much in this platform is that their stabiliser is really world class.  And the best thing is that because it’s built into the body itself, any lens you mount on their can be turned into a stabilised lens.  Any vintage lens, and cinema lens I happen to adapt.  Or the wonderful new APO primes from SLR Magic.

Curiously, no mention at all of IBIS only being good for locked off shots - if that were the case, it would be of no use whatsoever. Unfortunately, mirrorless cameras are more prone to jitters than heavy cinema cameras, so IBIS comes in pretty handy. It also helps enormously to iron out the wriggles in gimbal shots, as demonstrated in numerous videos online. 

Which is the reason I like IBIS so much - it turns my Veydras into stabilized lenses that can be handheld at eqiuvalent focal lengths of 238 mm, allowing me to shoot in places where a tripod or gimbal would either be forbidden or attract too much attention.

Just in case anyone misunderstands, I could care less whether the Batcam’s got IBIS or not. And I’m thrilled it’s not going to have functioning AF-C either, because, as Mr Glencairn rightly points out, true cinematographers don’t need that shit.

I'm not sure what point you're making ?

I use many cameras in the course of the work that I do.  One of the reasons I CHOOSE to use a camera like the EM1 Mark II is because it has IBIS.  I just used it recently on a pilot I was shooting in Chicago for some tracking shots in a vehicle.  The small size is perfect and the IBIS works great.  Those shots are in the finished pilot and the director loved them.

But I wouldn't use IBIS all the time because it's not really a replacement for a dolly move or slider, though a lot of people expect it to be able to do those kinds of shots. 

Does that clarify your confusion ?

JB

 

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21 minutes ago, John Brawley said:

I'm not sure what point you're making ?

I use many cameras in the course of the work that I do.  One of the reasons I CHOOSE to use a camera like the EM1 Mark II is because it has IBIS.  I just used it recently on a pilot I was shooting in Chicago for some tracking shots in a vehicle.  The small size is perfect and the IBIS works great.  Those shots are in the finished pilot and the director loved them.

But I wouldn't use IBIS all the time because it's not really a replacement for a dolly move or slider, though a lot of people expect it to be able to do those kinds of shots. 

Does that clarify your confusion ?

JB

 

Nobody said anything about using anything all the time, John. And I don’t know anyone who thinks IBIS is a replacement for a slider.... do you?

Edit: earlier you said IS was problematic on tracking shots, now you’re saying you used it successfully on a tracking shot...

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1 hour ago, jonpais said:

Nobody said anything about using anything all the time, John. And I don’t know anyone who thinks IBIS is a replacement for a slider.... do you?

Edit: earlier you said IS was problematic on tracking shots, now you’re saying you used it successfully on a tracking shot...

I know plenty that feel IBIS is almost as good as a gimbal and therefore can be used in place of a dolly for tracking shots. 

As as opposed to me in a car tracking someone, the example I gave.

Thats two different types of tracking shots. 

And by the way you said “locked off” shots which I didn’t actually say and is not what I’m talking about IBIS being good at.

Keep trying.

JB

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13 hours ago, jonpais said:

Unfortunately, mirrorless cameras are more prone to jitters than heavy cinema cameras, so IBIS comes in pretty handy. It also helps enormously to iron out the wriggles in gimbal shots, as demonstrated in numerous videos online. 

Agree. I remember that I was sold for usability of solo and solo+gimbal possibilities of IBIS after watched two brilliant examples, and after remarkable author encouraged and favored combined usage of both in the second example: "In fact I tested the camera on the gimbal with IS turned off and on and I expected that having it ON would make it worse because they would fight each other....however I found that the camera IS being turned on whilst on the gimbal helped improve the overall feel of the shot and took out a few of the minor jitters." 

 

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4 hours ago, John Brawley said:

I know plenty that feel IBIS is almost as good as a gimbal and therefore can be used in place of a dolly for tracking shots. 

As as opposed to me in a car tracking someone, the example I gave.

Thats two different types of tracking shots. 

I shoot almost exclusively hand-held and IS is wonderful, but you are right that it doesn't replace a dolly or slider for camera moves.

IS only smooths out camera rotation, not camera movement.  Which is why I try and do a dolly shot by hand it looks terrible because instead of the foreground moving smoothly in front of the background the two planes move around shakily in relation to each other because I can't move the camera at a fixed speed horizontally, and I can't eliminate me moving it vertically!

I think this is one of the key reasons that all the cool kids on YouTube shooting hand-held always use slow motion for their shallow depth-of-field B-Roll shots because when you slow things down you also slow down their jerky camera movement.

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16 hours ago, anonim said:

Agree. I remember that I was sold for usability of solo and solo+gimbal possibilities of IBIS after watched two brilliant examples, and after remarkable author encouraged and favored combined usage of both in the second example: "In fact I tested the camera on the gimbal with IS turned off and on and I expected that having it ON would make it worse because they would fight each other....however I found that the camera IS being turned on whilst on the gimbal helped improve the overall feel of the shot and took out a few of the minor jitters." 

Hi. 

Thank you for the words. 

I only used a Gimbal in Curiosity and it was only for a handful of shots. The orbit around the actor on the bush track and the wide in the water pumping station along with a few shots at the end.

Intrigue, the other clip, is entirely hand held aside from a couple of obvious car mount shots (where I forgot to turn IBIS OFF)

I have mixed feelings about gimbals and just like IBIS, they’re good in certain situations. I tend to use something like a gimbal for tracking shots rather than relying on IBIS. 

As I mentioned way back, ibis works best to stabilise hand held shots that aren’t tracking in some way. Which is not the same as locked off shots. 

Any good operator knows that on a long lens the shot is easier to hold steady if you keep it moving slightly. This can be a gentle rock of changing weight as you operate the shot. By keeping the shot “alive” you’re less likely to notice jitter.  With very light and small MILC and dslr style cameras they’re actually harder to hand hold when they have less mass. 

IBIS helps smooth out the jitter on hand held shots like this that aren’t tracking but you’re also not locked into one position.

Depending on the storytelling style you might prefer hand held in a more “natural” style too.  After trying gimbals out for a while when they first became available I’ve tended to not really use them except for very particular shots that they’re great at.

But for 97% of my work it’s not stabilised by gimbal or IBIS, mostly because I only use these kinds of rigs for shots where I need IBIS. 

JB

 

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Very good examples of handheld & gimbal work. 

I am really not a very good camera operator (boring framing, I judge this in the NLE). But one thing seems so important to me that it's the first thing I master with every camera: how to avoid shaky shots (focus, expose, the whole pilot's checklist). No IBIS? Okay, if that's a dealbreaker for anyone, move on!

The concept of this camera is image quality through less in-camera corrections. Purer and honester images. The concept of a camera with IBIS, multiple AF programs, a big palette of picture profiles, internal lens corrections asf. is also image quality, but a with fundamentally different approach. This should be understood.

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1 hour ago, Axel said:

Very good examples of handheld & gimbal work. 

I am really not a very good camera operator (boring framing, I judge this in the NLE). But one thing seems so important to me that it's the first thing I master with every camera: how to avoid shaky shots (focus, expose, the whole pilot's checklist). No IBIS? Okay, if that's a dealbreaker for anyone, move on!

The concept of this camera is image quality through less in-camera corrections. Purer and honester images. The concept of a camera with IBIS, multiple AF programs, a big palette of picture profiles, internal lens corrections asf. is also image quality, but a with fundamentally different approach. This should be understood.

It sounds like nobody can question anything at all about the camera, and it hasn’t even been released. If it had dual pixel autofocus, would you also take a pass? a long life Panasonic battery? Or are you in Frank Glencairn’s camp - only sissies complain about battery life?

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2 hours ago, jonpais said:

It sounds like nobody can question anything at all about the camera, and it hasn’t even been released. If it had dual pixel autofocus, would you also take a pass? a long life Panasonic battery? Or are you in Frank Glencairn’s camp - only sissies complain about battery life?

I question a lot about the camera. It's not a big deal to swap batteries every 30 minutes or so (I don't buy one hour), did that with the old Pocket, do it with A6500 (although I could, and I did on one occasion, plug a powerbank to he USB port). But you're right, there are a lot of obstacles. I use AF only on a gimbal (the slightest focus hunting during the unrepeatable bridal kiss would ruin the shot for me), I never use AE, I can shoot handheld up to 85mm fullframe equivalent (with custom rig - although if they're there, I do use IBIS and OIS as well). What bothers me the most right now is that it will take me weeks to rig the BMPCC 4k to my needs, and though I find some pleasure in this kind of problem solving, it comes with frustration too.

That's the biggest question about the camera. Too big to be pocketed. Probably not very good without rig. And it needed a big rig too, unless someone will provide a 5" loupe ...

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2 hours ago, jonpais said:

It sounds like nobody can question anything at all about the camera, and it hasn’t even been released. If it had dual pixel autofocus, would you also take a pass? a long life Panasonic battery? Or are you in Frank Glencairn’s camp - only sissies complain about battery life?

Features like dual pixel autofocus and in-body stabilization will not come from small/non-mainstream manufacturers like Blackmagic any time soon, because they are highly proprietary, patented technology to which only major companies have access.

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15 minutes ago, John Brawley said:

It sounds like you’re threatened by this camera so you’re making sure you point out any and all shortcomings you can. Isn’t sissy a bit emotional ? You’re reaching.

Some people will be happy with 10bit 422 as their maximum image quality as long as they have a tilt able screen and autofocus. 

Most serious image makers know that 12bit raw and 10 bit ProRes for half the price trumps the MILC features you’re desperately trying to remind everyone your precious GH5s has. Mostly because “filmmakers” don’t tend to use those features anyway. I don’t use AF.  But I shoot narrative drama.  What I need isn’t what others need.

For the majority, they will prefer the utility of the form factor, longer battery life, AF and IBIS on the GH5 and will find the bare minimum for serious work 400Mbps codec to be good enough. 

People who care about image fidelity will likely prefer what a Pocket 2 produces side by side and will also decide that they can work around the shortcomings that pertain to the way they work.

The same way others will prefer to work around the shortcomings of a lower bit depth more compressed and sub sampled image because other features are important to them. 

On board batteries on an Alexa mini on my last show were lasting about 40 mins by the way.  I guess you’re calling me a sissy. 

JB

EDIT  by the way, I don’t think it’s at all appropriate to use sissy, a word that means effeminate man or homosexual. Maybe you want to change that.

I think you called yourself that. I didn't call anybody anything.

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