Blackmagic Pocket Cinema Camera 4K

[thebrothersthre3]

20 minutes ago, webrunner5 said:

Hell I thought you were talking the differences LoL. I don't really think it is going to be the same ever. It is a Sony sensor. I don't care what you do with it, it is not  going to look alike. And all the cameras that use that sensor really look alike. None of them look like a OG BMPCC.

There has never been a camera that looks like the original C100. Even the C100 mk II doesn't look at all like it. Some cameras just have a certain, special look.

I don't know if a Gh5 can match an Alexa I think anything's possible

[graphicnatured]

I can shoot the same scene with a P4k, a OG Pocket and a Micro Cinema if you want. Tell me what you want shot and I'll do it and share the raw files.

[kye]

35 minutes ago, graphicnatured said:

I can shoot the same scene with a P4k, a OG Pocket and a Micro Cinema if you want. Tell me what you want shot and I'll do it and share the raw files.

Awesome!  

I'm thinking we should do this carefully and properly, unlike all the other BS camera comparisons we all justifiably hang shit on.

I think there's two approaches

1. Shoot all of cameras simultaneously, which would mean no differences in what they're filming and we can sync them up for direct comparison.  The downside to this is that you can't use the same lens on each of them, unless you can borrow some duplicates from somewhere, and the angles would be slightly different, but with a long focal length this is passable.
2. Shoot them sequentially and have a completely controlled scene, so 100% artificial lighting (already warmed up), etc.  The upside is we can get the same angle and lens, the downside is that any human movement or poses won't be identical.

In terms of what to shoot, we absolutely need movement, we absolutely need skin tones, and we absolutely need to have a range of highlights/shadows and different colours.

I'm not going to be able to match the colours exactly like @Sage has done with the GHa, I'm more interested in making the footage from the P4K look like it was shot with either of the other two cameras, ie, to be believable.  I'm with @DBounce that motion plays a critical role here.  I'm also thinking that resolution and softness are in the mix somehow too.

And if we can get a GH5 in there too that would be absolutely brilliant!

There really is something special about the BMPCC and some of these old cameras, and maybe @webrunner5 is right, but maybe not, and i'm not sure if anyone has given it a serious go or not.

What does everyone think about how to shoot it?

I'm going to need guidance from everyone else on this project for sure 

[graphicnatured]

I don't have a gh5, unfortunately, I have access to the three cameras mentioned as well as an Ursa Mini Pro, but that isn't part of this conversation. I have Kino Flos and Astras, bounces, etc.. A adorable eight year-old I can use as a model or can find someone to help, and I live in a pretty beautiful place (San Diego) I'm looking forward to this. If anyone in the forum is from around here and has a GH5 they want to bring, I'm all for it. I think so many are really interested in matching the new look to the old look though. Shooting simultaneously makes sense unless we light it, then I don't think that matters as long as we get the movement to be close. My lenses are all Nikon mount: I have (nikon) 85 1.8, 24-70 2.8, 70-200 vr1, 35mm f2, Sigma 50 1.4, Tokina 11-16, Tokina 100 macro, Helios 44-2, jupiter 9, helios 40, slr magic variable nd 2, hoya ir cut --- Both OG Pocket and Micro have Speedboosters, P4k has Viltrox. I would love to collaborate if anyone in Socal wants in on this.

[BTM_Pix]

I don't think using the exact same lens on each camera is optional and its where a lot of these comparison videos on YouTube are doomed before they start.

With the very different sensor sizes between the original and new Pocket cameras it is going to have to be a zoom one to match the FOV of the shots. To reduce the advantage the smaller sensor camera has by virtue of it using the stronger performing area of the lens, it should be a lens that covers full frame. 

And a constant aperture one obviously.

From the list that @graphicnatured has just put up that would be the Nikkor 24-70mm f2.8 that would be the most appropriate.

If you only have one copy of the lens and want exact matched content with movement in it then the solution to not being able to shoot simultaneously would be to actually have a static scene but have the camera on a motorised slider which would then give you a consistent repeatable movement.

[Yannick Willox]

8 hours ago, anonim said:

 

Is it just me, or does the P4K look less videoish and more warm/smooth than the BMCC 2.5K ?

It does not strike me as being too sharp, or too modern/digital, at all.

[kye]

36 minutes ago, graphicnatured said:

I don't have a gh5, unfortunately, I have access to the three cameras mentioned as well as an Ursa Mini Pro, but that isn't part of this conversation. I have Kino Flos and Astras, bounces, etc.. A adorable eight year-old I can use as a model or can find someone to help, and I live in a pretty beautiful place (San Diego) I'm looking forward to this. If anyone in the forum is from around here and has a GH5 they want to bring, I'm all for it. I think so many are really interested in matching the new look to the old look though. Shooting simultaneously makes sense unless we light it, then I don't think that matters as long as we get the movement to be close. My lenses are all Nikon mount: I have (nikon) 85 1.8, 24-70 2.8, 70-200 vr1, 35mm f2, Sigma 50 1.4, Tokina 11-16, Tokina 100 macro, Helios 44-2, jupiter 9, helios 40, slr magic variable nd 2, hoya ir cut --- Both OG Pocket and Micro have Speedboosters, P4k has Viltrox. I would love to collaborate if anyone in Socal wants in on this.

Awesome!

These camera tests are a lot more work than they seem, so including whatever other cameras (and helpers to come with them!) is a lot easier than trying to repeat the test with those missing cameras, or to try and shoot something equivalent under different conditions.

I'm totally fine for someone on social to get in on this too, I'm after knowledge not fame

37 minutes ago, graphicnatured said:

I think so many are really interested in matching the new look to the old look though.

This is my primary drive, so exact colours and whatever don't matter as much to me.  

When you look at old BMPCC footage that "x-factor" is apparent, so I don't think we need identical movements.  It's a "we'll know it when we see it" kind of thing, and that's why I think so many are interested in it but no-one can really describe what "it" is.  Thus why we invent new words like Mojo

17 minutes ago, BTM_Pix said:

I don't think using the exact same lens on each camera is optional and its where a lot of these comparison videos on YouTube are doomed before they start.

My vote is for matching the "soul" of the cameras so I don't care if the movement is identical, so now we just have to pick the most cinematic lens... lol.

....

So, artificial lighting, adorable 8-year old, Nikkor 24-70 f2.8, adapters, cameras and a tripod.  

In terms of the setup, how do we shoot it so that the character of each camera is most emphasised?  I'm thinking more dramatic lighting and lots of movement perhaps?  Should we use mixed lighting?  
What really makes the BM cameras sing?

[BTM_Pix]

This one is not a bad test at all but the suspense element was completely lost by not matching the FOV of the cameras (odd because it uses a zoom) and of course there being consistency between the two legacy cameras making it obvious which one was the new one.

And the difference is definitely clear in the ungraded footage.

Definitely adds to the weight of needing movement in the test.

 

[kye]

12 minutes ago, BTM_Pix said:

And the difference is definitely clear in the ungraded footage.

Definitely adds to the weight of needing movement in the test.

+1 for movement.

The difference might have been clear, but the x-factor was completely missing.  I'm not sitting and looking at the images going "wow those cameras are great", I'm thinking "these make terrible photo cameras"

We also need to be sure to nail focus too.  I'd suggest stopping down to mostly eliminate it as a variable.  I'm thinking there's mojo in these cameras even without fast lenses, so stopping down isn't going to prevent us from seeing the magic.

[Ehetyz]

^^ If that iphoneographers (lol) test were limited to just log it might be worth something, but it focuses on graded footage - graded by someone who's seemingly completely incompetent in it.

Also, looks like it has unmatching color balance/tint between the BMPCC4K and the older cameras. Mind you, he may have dialed the color balance to match by numbers, but the old v1 color science is notorious for having off-whack white balance (where the most usable range was about 3800 to 5000K) and a heavy brown/green tint (for the past month I've been grading a feature film shot on Ursa Mini 4,6K and a BMCC2,5K and while I can match them well, the process always starts with transforming the 2,5K into Color Science v4 and dialing down the green tint).

In the log footage you can clearly see the P4K having warmer image - likely dialed to be too warm for the situation.

P4K uses the fourth generation color science which has its own quirks. I'm guessing after Ursa Mini and its proneness to magenta they pulled back towards green and slightly browner, less red yellow tones, since those are the colors I tend to have to tweak when matching UM and P4K. This leads me to believe that in the test they had the tint pushed towards magenta on the P4K or had a magenta cast coming from the LED light - because of the all the aberrations the P4K has, magenta cast isn't one I've encountered.

I don't really even want to go all zealot on the P4K but the rose-tinted glasses towards the old BMD cameras feel extremely silly from the POV of someone who has used them for years and dealt with the headaches and color issues they had. Sure, like with lo-fi 8mm or 16mm film, you can have an opinion that it has more character than something more hi-fi. But they're certainly not superior and the V4 color science (even the in-camera V3 in URSA Mini 4,6K) are lightyears more malleable and pleasant to use.

[kye]

Another thought, a colour chart would be useful, and maybe something with predictable movement, like a fan.

That way we can verify that any movement-related differences aren't related to shutter angle, and the colour chart would help in matching colours.

[Kisaha]

Guys and girls, how is your order status so far?

I asked the official BM importer here and they couldn't give me a timetable for delivery. They still haven't service pre-orders from months ago, so I didn't pre order yet.

Has anyone NOT received his pre-ordered P4K yet? And when do you people pre-ordered.

[mercer]

RE: comparison test... IMO this test should be performed outdoors where the BMPCC shines. Also, the test should include IR Cut filtration... with and without. I have noticed what appears to be IR contamination in P4K footage and others online have thought so too, but the believers adamantly fight against its existence. I’m very curious to know if I ever get my hands on one, if I’ll need an IR Cut Filter. Another question with the P4K compared to the OG is that the P4K does not handle highlights as well... so a test shot showing highlight rolloff would be excellent.

[BopBill]

5 hours ago, Kisaha said:

Guys and girls, how is your order status so far?

I asked the official BM importer here and they couldn't give me a timetable for delivery. They still haven't service pre-orders from months ago, so I didn't pre order yet.

Has anyone NOT received his pre-ordered P4K yet? And when do you people pre-ordered.

I pre-ordered about 23 of August and still waiting. This is in Finland. I am little upset because BM is so silent. 3 months and not a word what is going on with the camera shipments.

[wyrlyn]

 

[Emanuel]

4 hours ago, mercer said:

RE: comparison test... IMO this test should be performed outdoors where the BMPCC shines. Also, the test should include IR Cut filtration... with and without. I have noticed what appears to be IR contamination in P4K footage and others online have thought so too, but the believers adamantly fight against its existence. I’m very curious to know if I ever get my hands on one, if I’ll need an IR Cut Filter. Another question with the P4K compared to the OG is that the P4K does not handle highlights as well... so a test shot showing highlight rolloff would be excellent.

I only see people who don't have one trying to sustain to themselves their miss... LOL : -)

[Kisaha]

7 hours ago, BopBill said:

I pre-ordered about 23 of August and still waiting. This is in Finland. I am little upset because BM is so silent. 3 months and not a word what is going on with the camera shipments.

Upsetting..at least. They delivered only a few in my country just after their first release..instead of sending more, it seems they slowed down production!

[webrunner5]

4 hours ago, Emanuel said:

I only see people who don't have one trying to sustain to themselves their miss... LOL : -)

Well there must be a hell of a lot of people in that same boat, because hardly anyone seems to be able to buy one. A real Jackass rollout. ?

[mercer]

23 minutes ago, webrunner5 said:

Well there must be a hell of a lot of people in that same boat, because hardly anyone seems to be able to buy one. A real Jackass rollout. ?

I guess that’s the question... is a camera even considered released if only 100 of the thousands of preorders are filled?

[webrunner5]

I think Blackmagic ought to at Least get off their ass and tell the truth up front right now what the hell is going on, and when they REALLY expect deliveries to All countries. I realize they are a small company, but you are allowed, no matter the size, to let people into what is happening. This shit does effect peoples lives, and livelihoods. Jesus.