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Andrew Reid

Blackmagic casually announces 12K URSA Mini Pro Camera

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Not to put the cart before the horse, but does anyone think Metabones or Blackmagic might eventually make a focal reducer EF mount for this camera and the 4.6k camera?  Having a large format option makes this camera even more interesting to me.  Also, I assume a Magic Booster by LucAdapters will be made for this camera.  Is the Magic Booster a quality product of similar quality to Metabones Speedboosters?  

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53 minutes ago, Leica50mm said:

Any of you geeks seen this? 

 

The color separation is fantastic - distinctive browns. yellows and blacks which don't loose subtle color shifts from lighting even when crushed.   I think there is something special going on here and I will love to hear from folks on how they feel it grades compared to other cameras.

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4 hours ago, androidlad said:

Yes I invented this 12K sensor, which is precisely the same size as RED Komodo at 27.03mm x 14.25mm, and exactly double the horizontal and vertical resolution.

And who made the RED Komodo sensor?? 😉

Ok fine, this 12K sensor is a custom version of Canon's 120MXSC, operating in an ROI mode https://canon-cmos-sensors.com/canon-120mxs-cmos-sensor/

Prince Harry Mic Drop GIF

  

1 hour ago, PaulUsher said:

We should be in for some sweet rolling shutter then 😉 

It isn't based off any sensor, it's a custom one.
The rolling shutter times are around 16ms in 12K and 6ms in 8K (from another thread).

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I had the first Ursa Mini 4.6k and though it was a really good image. Blackmagic reliability was super poor. First one had the magenta issue, then they sent me new one after a friend got me chance to directly talk to Grant Petty at Cine Gear Los Angeles and they sent me a new one. Got the new one and less than year completely died on a shoot and was barely used. Sent me a third one and to deal with the IR, Moire and aliasing issues that plagued it had to buy a special third party sensor filter. By that time I gave up and saved up enough for a RED Dragon X then upgraded it to a Gemini and has been a solid work horse. I also passed over the pocket 4ks for the GH5s for smaller projects because they are not plagued with reliability issues. As much as I loved the first Ursa look and use Da Vinci resolve constantly I just can't ever go back after being burned on the Ursa Mini.  

So the 12k is impressive tech and hope one day they can be reliable cameras because I did love the image coming from them Blackmagic. I wouldn't not mind paying more for there cameras if there quality control was reliable. I want them to be hire end solid cameras. 

But I fear from their history the 12k will be pushed out way to fast and be another few years of issues by then the next thing will be announced and the business model continues. 

Also lets not forget they promised global shutter on the Ursa Mini 4.6k and took preorders and then when they arrived the Global shutter mode was a lie and was taken away, HDMI out was taken away, and also accelerometers for VFX was no where to be seen.  I bet what they announced today some of the feature will disappear. Like 12k 60p and 8K 110 fps.  Or even 12k. They might be 12k sensor sampled to 8k or 6k.  

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21 minutes ago, majoraxis said:

The color separation is fantastic - distinctive browns. yellows and blacks which don't loose subtle color shifts from lighting even when crushed.   I think there is something special going on here and I will love to hear from folks on how they feel it grades compared to other cameras.

Grading the footage is amazing. Like you said, beautiful colors and great organic, rich detail.

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28 minutes ago, note235 said:
5 hours ago, androidlad said:And who made the RED Komodo sensor?? 😉

Ok fine, this 12K sensor is a custom version of Canon's 120MXSC, operating in an ROI mode https://canon-cmos-sensors.com/canon-120mxs-cmos-sensor/

Prince Harry Mic Drop GIF

1 hour ago, PaulUsher said:

We should be in for some sweet rolling shutter then 😉 

It isn't based off any sensor, it's a custom one.
The rolling shutter times are around 16ms in 12K and 6ms in 8K (from another thread).

lol we were joking... 

Skin tones in that sample footage have mojo, no de-bayering or luminance/color averaging taking place - I wish all sensors did this. Canon used to do it in the original C cams, don’t know why they don’t do this more 

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38 minutes ago, amsh89es335 said:

I had the first Ursa Mini 4.6k and though it was a really good image. Blackmagic reliability was super poor. First one had the magenta issue, then they sent me new one after a friend got me chance to directly talk to Grant Petty at Cine Gear Los Angeles and they sent me a new one. Got the new one and less than year completely died on a shoot and was barely used. Sent me a third one and to deal with the IR, Moire and aliasing issues that plagued it had to buy a special third party sensor filter. By that time I gave up and saved up enough for a RED Dragon X then upgraded it to a Gemini and has been a solid work horse. I also passed over the pocket 4ks for the GH5s for smaller projects because they are not plagued with reliability issues. As much as I loved the first Ursa look and use Da Vinci resolve constantly I just can't ever go back after being burned on the Ursa Mini.  

So the 12k is impressive tech and hope one day they can be reliable cameras because I did love the image coming from them Blackmagic. I wouldn't not mind paying more for there cameras if there quality control was reliable. I want them to be hire end solid cameras. 

But I fear from their history the 12k will be pushed out way to fast and be another few years of issues by then the next thing will be announced and the business model continues. 

Also lets not forget they promised global shutter on the Ursa Mini 4.6k and took preorders and then when they arrived the Global shutter mode was a lie and was taken away, HDMI out was taken away, and also accelerometers for VFX was no where to be seen.  I bet what they announced today some of the feature will disappear. Like 12k 60p and 8K 110 fps.  Or even 12k. They might be 12k sensor sampled to 8k or 6k.  

Waw, real life experience is gold before any buying decision, a Komodo if it is reliable like the other RED's, with a decent autofocus, in a small package for run and gun unnoticed on the streets looks much much better to me.

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That vimeo clip looks stunning. 12K still is overkill for right now, but unless it's a POS, that's a camera that will be future proof for a long, long while at a very good price. 

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Wow.  I went to bed last night and woke up to this..

I predicted an 8K FF camera as a semi-ridiculous joke, but I had no idea that it would turn out not audacious enough!!

My comments in the 1080p thread are interesting in this context though.  We are playing the megapixel game, but very few are giving high-bitrates to downscaled resolutions, but if this is giving 4K RAW downscaled from 12K then the image should be spectacular, while not requiring the computer to be able to push 12K pixels around.

This would make it a hugely flexible camera - yes you can shoot 12K RAW if the project warrants it, but you can also shoot 4K RAW with no crop at great bitrates and bit depths for projects where post needs to be more cost effective.

Also, if the colour science is great, this could put them on the map as a serious challenge to ARRI / RED.  Then they'd have to nail the reliability in order to actually take market share, but it's a shot across the bow nonetheless.

BM are thinking big - they do it with Resolve every year, did it with the pocket cameras since the OG Pocket, and now at the high-end too.

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13 minutes ago, kye said:

Wow.  I went to bed last night and woke up to this..

I predicted an 8K FF camera as a semi-ridiculous joke, but I had no idea that it would turn out not audacious enough!!

My comments in the 1080p thread are interesting in this context though.  We are playing the megapixel game, but very few are giving high-bitrates to downscaled resolutions, but if this is giving 4K RAW downscaled from 12K then the image should be spectacular, while not requiring the computer to be able to push 12K pixels around.

This would make it a hugely flexible camera - yes you can shoot 12K RAW if the project warrants it, but you can also shoot 4K RAW with no crop at great bitrates and bit depths for projects where post needs to be more cost effective.

Also, if the colour science is great, this could put them on the map as a serious challenge to ARRI / RED.  Then they'd have to nail the reliability in order to actually take market share, but it's a shot across the bow nonetheless.

BM are thinking big - they do it with Resolve every year, did it with the pocket cameras since the OG Pocket, and now at the high-end too.

This is what RED should have been doing all along and I guess they started to with 4K ProRes proxies, either way...for me this announcement marks major gap in the armor for RED. Probably not "the end" as they have been silent for a while and probably have something big in the pipeline. The problem is that RED has been chasing the resolution dragon (thank you) almost exclusively. They haven't given us more FPS and they have actually taken functionality away while getting more expensive! The features of this camera are almost...silly. RED would charge $50,000 for a similar camera but an extra $10,000 would be needed for accessories. 

So yeah...this is a major splash on the high end. Enough to make a lot of RED guys switch? Who knows. Will it test their loyalty? Abso-freaking-lutely. 

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32 minutes ago, kye said:

are playing the megapixel game, but very few are giving high-bitrates to downscaled resolutions, but if this is giving 4K RAW downscaled from 12K then the image should be spectacular,

Yes, I changed my tune on the megapixel Grand Prix because advancements like this are win-win. I don’t need 12K, or 8K but a 4K image from a 3x3 bayer array 12K sensor....awesome.

So the headline is 12K but the meat of the story is the awesome oversampled 8K and 4K output from this camera.

Same with the R5. Headline is 8K but we finally have a Canon mirrorless camera with 4K, IBIS, and 10-bit 422. That’s a win and a step forward.

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2 hours ago, amsh89es335 said:

 

Also lets not forget they promised global shutter on the Ursa Mini 4.6k and took preorders and then when they arrived the Global shutter mode was a lie and was taken away, HDMI out was taken away, and also accelerometers for VFX was no where to be seen.  I bet what they announced today some of the feature will disappear. Like 12k 60p and 8K 110 fps.  Or even 12k. They might be 12k sensor sampled to 8k or 6k.  

I am confident this will deliver 12k and everything else promised.

The bigger issue is quality control of course. The camera needs to be shipped on time and without issues. 

I really love Blackmagic. If their color science and quality control is up there with Arri I think they have a serious shot at making an impact. 

The URSA was a nice camera but it has a lot of issues. This seems like a completely different beast.

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1 hour ago, kye said:

Wow.  I went to bed last night and woke up to this..

I predicted an 8K FF camera as a semi-ridiculous joke, but I had no idea that it would turn out not audacious enough!!

My comments in the 1080p thread are interesting in this context though.  We are playing the megapixel game, but very few are giving high-bitrates to downscaled resolutions, but if this is giving 4K RAW downscaled from 12K then the image should be spectacular, while not requiring the computer to be able to push 12K pixels around.

This would make it a hugely flexible camera - yes you can shoot 12K RAW if the project warrants it, but you can also shoot 4K RAW with no crop at great bitrates and bit depths for projects where post needs to be more cost effective.

Also, if the colour science is great, this could put them on the map as a serious challenge to ARRI / RED.  Then they'd have to nail the reliability in order to actually take market share, but it's a shot across the bow nonetheless.

BM are thinking big - they do it with Resolve every year, did it with the pocket cameras since the OG Pocket, and now at the high-end too.

Spot on.

 

Yes this camera does 12K, and if it made many sacrifices to get that 12K then it would be silly but I'm really not seeing any sacrifices made here by Blackmagic.

You can still shoot 4K and 8K RAW with no crop. You still get frame rates over 30p. You can still record to inexpensive, off the shelf media. It (most likely) won't overheat every 20 minutes. The files are seemingly very easy to work with.

The only sacrifice, if you want to call it that,  is the price.....but given who this camera is aimed at, $10,000 is not expensive at all. 

What I'm taking from this is how exciting the future from Blackmagic looks now that they are creating their own sensors, codecs and post hardware and software.  

I'm excited to see a Full Frame camera in a smaller form factor like a Kinefinity, Z-Cam or even C300 style body etc but with a sensor that might let me shoot 8K, 6K and 4K RAW with no crop in a fantastically flexible codec that I can work with on a laptop. 

What's not to like!

 

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1 hour ago, thebrothersthre3 said:

The bigger issue is quality control of course. The camera needs to be shipped on time and without issues. 

This x100. Their quality control has been suspect in the past. But otherwise this is a huge release. 

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8 hours ago, Sid said:

Apologies if the test footage was already posted:-

 

I have been fully in Panasonic's camp since my journey began. Never in my life have a seen a Mike Drop from a corporation  so damn brutal in all of my years.

But I have one more question. Where do they get these black people with all the gorgeous chocolaty skin from? My skin has never looked that damn good, and I've been black all of my life! LOL If this is BMD putting their best foot forward for inclusion, they certainly did it with class.

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