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Blackmagic Pocket Cinema Camera 4K

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On 7/23/2018 at 4:03 PM, Savannah Miller said:

Firstly, the Alexa only does uncompressed raw.  Nothing else.

Magic Lantern does.

Just now, webrunner5 said:

I am sure the 800 ISO is going to be the native PK4 native ISO. So I would bet it is best to use that ISO.

Assuming the sensor even has a native ISO. Not all do.

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8 minutes ago, webrunner5 said:

I am sure the 800 ISO is going to be the native PK4 native ISO. So I would bet it is best to use that ISO.

That's what I thought too, but the guy in the video I posted, shows that if the native is 800,  but the camera can go lower (400 or 200) those might give cleaner images at the cost of DR, but 400 is the perfect balance.

I guess we'll wait and see.

11 minutes ago, Andrew Reid said:

Those are some serious images in the video above.

If the Pocket is anything like the URSA Mini Pro it will be a treat.

Pretty lush huh? And check these out.

 

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I was referring to the Alexa not offering compressed raw, not that other cameras do not offer uncompressed raw. A lot of cameras do offer uncompressed raw, including early firmware builds of blackmagic and kinefinity cameras.

Pocket 4K native ISO is 400 and 3200 depending on whether or not you shoot at 1600ISO or above.  If you stick to 800 and below, it doesn't activate the high ISO mode.  All sensors to some extent have an optimal ISO, but whether it's a true "native" ISO based around Exposure Index is another question entirely.

Changing ISO does not give you less dynamic range when the camera uses EI, it just redistributes the dynamic range differently.  In the case of HOW it distributes the dynamic range, it's unfortunately backwards.  As you increase ISO, you get extra highlight dynamic range, and as you decrease ISO you get more shadow dynamic range.  That's the opposite of what you want as shadow dynamic range is optimal  in lower lighting scenarios and yet you would generally need  to use a higher ISO.

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So that guy claiming to shoot at 400 ISO gives you a cleaner more malleable image.  Yes, although he doesn't do a good job of explaining WHY it gives you a cleaner and more malleable image.

The Ursa Mini Pro is always running at 800 ISO and that's the only real ISO setting.  Period.  All of the other ISO settings are "fake" similar to the extended ISO ranges found on a lot of dslr cameras.  So, when you expose for 400 ISO it's the equivalent of overexposing by 1 stop at 800 ISO and pushing it down in the grade.  If you convert your prores film gamut into xyz linear (bypassing the bias of the log curve) and gain the image, you get the same result as changing exposure/iso in the raw controls.  When you do that, you get 1 extra stop of shadow detail due to overexposing and you lose one in the highlights.  Also one of the side effects of exposing for 400 ISO is that you can push the image up to 1 stop in post and still get the no significant increase in noise level because you would now be back at the native ISO of 800.  So in run/gun scenarios, 400ISO gives you a safety net to accidentally underexpose by up to 1 stop with no consequences.  It's a lot harder to tell if an image is underexposed rather than overexposed and clearly clipped.

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On 7/23/2018 at 9:44 AM, kye said:

Thanks @John Brawley that makes sense, and the data logistics would be significant.  However, I thought someone had mentioned that Prores was preferred even in situations where the data rates were similar?  I probably should have included it in my original question :)

Maybe I'm remembering incorrectly, or perhaps that statement might have been in a different context?

 

I'd love to explore it more, but I got some flack for discussing workflow issues like this as being non-core 4K issues in this thread so let's talk ab out this somewhere else some other time.  

JB

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11 minutes ago, Savannah Miller said:

This is a thread about a 4K camera, so it does seem odd to mention that you only shoot 1080p or that's what professionals use, but it is the truth.

I don't have a 4k TV, and I am sure 99% of the people in the world don't, so why bother. I am more beginning to believe it is more for the VFX people on Blockbuster Movies than just BoB.

To me really good looking 1080p is well, damn good looking. I can maybe see 2K, but I guess the Genie is not going back in the bottle. I can see it for Travel, Doc, Scientific stuff, I can. But the cost of all involved to store it, edit it, Monitor it, Camera, media, on and on Christ I am not sure it is all really worth it for the average Joe Blow.

But this BM 4K BMPCC is pretty damn interesting I must say that.. Ugg.

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1 hour ago, webrunner5 said:

I don't have a 4k TV, and I am sure 99% of the people in the world don't, so why bother. I am more beginning to believe it is more for the VFX people on Blockbuster Movies than just BoB.

As matter of fact, no idea how it is in your countries... But, here in Europe there's no sense to buy a new TV set unless UHD.

It is the market to determinate that. Full HD display technology is just outdated. You can buy a 40-55" TV set (UHD) for 400 euros, so...

People should stop to worry about resolution or even refrain to discuss such topic.

4K came to stay.

There's nothing strange about that. As much natural as digital or when DVD replaced VHS.

Wonder why or trying to praise the old technology doesn't make any sense, because lower resolution is merely old.

Nothing against that. Horses for courses, though.

We are not comparing apples to oranges. It is not 35mm film versus UHD.

I much prefer to watch an old movie in a remastered copy on my 4K display from a new 4K source than a lower resolution copy.

4K is here to help you out, not to make lower acquisition look like bad.

That's the whole point : ) This is not a competition. Technology is here to offer a better outcome. Only that : -)

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1 hour ago, Emanuel said:

As matter of fact, no idea how it is in your countries... But, here in Europe there's no sense to buy a new TV set unless UHD.

It is the market to determinate that. Full HD display technology is just outdated. You can buy a 40-55" TV set (UHD) for 400 euros, so...

People should stop to worry about resolution or even refrain to discuss such topic.

4K came to stay.

There's nothing strange about that. As much natural as digital or when DVD replaced VHS.

Wonder why or trying to praise the old technology doesn't make any sense, because lower resolution is merely old.

Nothing against that. Horses for courses, though.

We are not comparing apples to oranges. It is not 35mm film versus UHD.

I much prefer to watch an old movie in a remastered copy on my 4K display from a new 4K source than a lower resolution copy.

4K is here to help you out, not to make lower acquisition look like bad.

That's the whole point : ) This is not a competition. Technology is here to offer a better outcome. Only that : -)

I doubt you can even buy a New TV that is Only 1080p in anything less than 32" here. But I never buy a new TV. I buy them used off of Craigslist or from a Pawn Shop. I can buy a 55" 1080p one for 150 dollars. I don't have a real camera that even shoots 4K. I am not buying a recorder for my Sony a7s that cost more money than the camera did LoL. And my iPhone X does 4k, but it is not good enough to justify a 500 dollar TV to see it LoL. I really don't even read the news on the Web often. Don't care anymore.

I really hardly EVER watch TV, and when I do it is for an hour to watch the Local and National news from 6:00 to 7:00 PM. That is pretty much it. And I may only do that 2 or 3 times a week. Some times not for 2 weeks I turn it on.That is why I don't watch Fox news, CNN etc, etc. And I pay very little attention to Washington DC. I really don't even read the news on the Web often. Don't care anymore. If I get up and everything is still there I figure we are not at War with Russia, China, etc. So all is good. 😁

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10 hours ago, John Brawley said:

I'd love to explore it more, but I got some flack for discussing workflow issues like this as being non-core 4K issues in this thread so let's talk ab out this somewhere else some other time.  

JB

New thread time please! :-) 

There was a good little thread over in dvxuser recently about how to promote a non-4K camera to clients in this 4K world:

http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showthread.php?361174-Pitching-F35-to-clients-production-companies

 I would like to see more discussions around how we don't have to shoot 4K all the time

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9 hours ago, Savannah Miller said:

This is a thread about a 4K camera, so it does seem odd to mention that you only shoot 1080p or that's what professionals use, but it is the truth.

I'm not sure if you're being literal, or sarcastic (it's so hard to tell on forums..) but I think that fixating on just one aspect of this camera is a bit silly.

It's also a RAW camera, a prores camera, a BM colour science camera, a m43 camera, a non-IBIS camera, a fixed-screen camera, etc etc etc.  All equally relevant aspects to discuss.

Talking about shooting 1080 in a thread about a camera that shoots RAW 1080 seems quite relevant to me, especially considering the enormous file sizes of 4K and high image quality of RAW 1080 I think a lot of people will shoot various flavours of 1080 with it when it comes out.

My prediction is that lots of people will be viewing this camera as a BMPCC where they fixed the battery issues, the screen issues, the sound issues, etc, as well as the people who will be viewing this as a camera that shoots 4K.  I'm not aware of many discussions around the BMPCC v1 where it was criticised for the image quality not being sufficient, and I'm sure that lots of cameras in 4K are poorer performing than the Pocket 1 or 2 are in RAW 1080.

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11 hours ago, Savannah Miller said:

This is a thread about a 4K camera, so it does seem odd to mention that you only shoot 1080p or that's what professionals use, but it is the truth.

Tonnes of people shoot at 1080/2K with a 4K camera. 

At a wild guess I'd say well under half of the shoots I'm on are done at 4K

2 hours ago, kye said:

Talking about shooting 1080 in a thread about a camera that shoots RAW 1080 seems quite relevant to me, especially considering the enormous file sizes of 4K and high image quality of RAW 1080 I think a lot of people will shoot various flavours of 1080 with it when it comes out.

 

But raw 1080 would be a substantial crop

I'd rather use the full sensor to shoot at 1080 ProRes HQ

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6 minutes ago, jonpais said:

All I've gotta say is, it's around what I paid for my battery grip for the X-T2 with batteries.

Does it last for 4 hours or more? I know my battery grip for my Sony A7s is lucky to last 2 hours of shooting. Now in standby sure yeah, it goes 4, 5 hours.

And I would imagine the PK4 is a power hungry camera. Might mean a "normal" camera could go 6 hours maybe? With that big screen and the fan going I don't see how it can't help but be.

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