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Mattias Burling

The Canon C200 is here and its a bomb!

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20 minutes ago, Andrew Reid said:

I get that a lot of pros read EOSHD but they will forever be a minority in the overall audience of 'cat shooters' as you so dismissively put it.

Erm, the derogatory subtext is yours, not mine. I was just having a laugh at all the negative comments. On spec it's purrfecto.

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I cant even afford a cat let alone this camera!

Looks very nice and way beyond me but I can not help but think with all its goodies it seems to be missing something for normal cat filming full HD and will be until the update.

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Won't be much change from $10,000 for the C200B in Aus, the C200 is likely to push $13,000. We should start to see raw internal recording on sub $5000 cameras from the big manufacturers in the next year. CFAST is still hella expensive, the new fast SD cards should be able to record raw light. Nikon need to pull their finger out, they won't want to be the last company to do raw; photographers will be all over raw video.

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8 minutes ago, Inazuma said:

Im so glad Canon didnt hold back with this camera.  Only I suspect it will become outdated quite quickly (120fps 4k on the horizon?)   

I think there needs to be a demand for 1080p first. On a global scale pretty much no one watches anything above 720p.
1080p is for a selected few and 4K is almost not used.

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6 hours ago, Andrew Reid said:

I am not going to become like C5D, NewShooter, etc. and start aiming the site solely at pros.

And you shouldn't. But... but but but. If you newer go beyond the "I'm shooting for fun", you will miss out a lot of learning opportunities, working with other people, forcing yourself to see other perspectives. Without goals, with just "shooting for fun", a lot of people will stay there. And they will be shooting for fun 10 years later. Not that there's anything wrong with that (there isn't) but sometimes people don't see the possibilities from the trees.

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49 minutes ago, Mattias Burling said:

I think there needs to be a demand for 1080p first. On a global scale pretty much no one watches anything above 720p.
1080p is for a selected few and 4K is almost not used.

True but what the viewers watch doesn't matter when the production houses or clients request/require 1080p or 4k.

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39 minutes ago, Inazuma said:

True but what the viewers watch doesn't matter when the production houses or clients request/require 1080p or 4k.

I have yet to deliver any 4K content. Our TV stations just last year started to send HD signal, and not all of them, and people (and clients) still ask for DVDs. This is our market.

I just started recently to work with -very limited- 4K, and the only reason is re-framing. BUT, I wouldn't buy a no 4K camera in 2017.

This Canon is at the top of my list right now, I feel there will be a FS5ii really soon, and the new Panasonic, but I am valuing dual pixel AF greatly, and the 18-80mm lens will be a perfect workhorse combo for some years to come (maybe with a better middle 10bit codec later on, maybe when C300mark III has 4K/120f and what not).

C100markII still is pretty much relevant in our job (in a few days I am going for a corporate shoot with it and a case of L lenses), I expect the C200 to be the standard workhorse for at least half a dozen years, even 8K in the future will be optimized for VR and 360, for 2D presentations 4K will be fine for a lot of years to come!

We have to admit, Canon really tried with this one, it is a major upgrade, still missing a robust middle codec (which is a HUGE omission) but in general is ticking a lot of boxes, and for a 9000$ camera, you spend another 6000$ for the 18-80mm, and you shoot all day, and all night.

I saw somewhere that Canon said it is the C700 sensor, but the specs show that it is the older one. Does any one know for sure what sensor do they use?

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8 hours ago, mercer said:

C'mon even you, the resident Canon hater, has to be a little impressed with this camera... even just a wittle eensie weensie bit?

Nope. My interest is in hybrids, and this is not a hybrid. It is also far too expensive for what it does. A camera like this should cost around $2.5-3k. So, I am not impressed. It is just another camera that can shoot 4K, and there are plenty of others that can do that which have been around for years.

I don't hate Canon cameras. I own Canon cameras. That does not mean that I can't be critical of their shortcomings.

The camera itself does not interest me. What interests me is the processor inside it and what it will mean for camera's that might interest me later on. That said, Canon have a history of disappointing in what they deliver. There is always some other camera that is already there and a few steps forward. So we will see. Maybe their new processor will bring them up to par with the competition's 2016 products in 2018, but chances are those competitors will have their own next gen stuff in 2018. That always seems to happen with Canon, at least in this decade. One step forward but two steps behind.

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1 hour ago, Inazuma said:

True but what the viewers watch doesn't matter when the production houses or clients request/require 1080p or 4k.

I know but Ive also said to plenty of those production houses, when hiring them for work, that they can skip the 4K.

The "need" isnt there yet. Its just a "nice" in my experience. But either way I still say no, I dont think the c200 will be outdated in just a year or so because some camera gets 120p 4K.

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2 hours ago, Mattias Burling said:

I think there needs to be a demand for 1080p first. On a global scale pretty much no one watches anything above 720p.
1080p is for a selected few and 4K is almost not used.

In Sweden perhaps. Other parts of the world have 1080p on cable. Pretty much most store sold content is in BluRay for, and almost all of that is 1080p. There is the odd 720p BluRay floating around, but most of those are older productions.

There is plenty of 4K content on Netflix, it seems like most of their current in house production is shot and presented in 4K.

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None of my clients ( corporate, wedding, docu ) have specifically requested 4K, however they certainly noticed whenever I shoot with it (wether A7S2, FS5 or XT2)

Furthermore, it's getting kind of hard for me to go back to shooting 1080p, once you get used to 4K resolution and it's benefits.

Most everything still gets rendered out 1080p but yeah 4k shooting is where it's at in 2017 as far as I'm concerned.

That being said broadcast standard 10-bit 422 may be more important to some and it is a shame C200 doesn't offer that at it's price, but Raw even if "light" and 12-bit is still huge.

Again it looks like I'll be selling most of my equipment to get hold of this camera..

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Yes I think this is going to be a popular camera amongst the existing c100 and 300 crowd - Canon are being much more aggressive with this camera and its specs and that is to be appaluded but the perplexing lack of 10 bit 4k is unlikely to get any Sony users to move over, even if they do have Canon lenses. Internal RAW is nice to have but 95% of its likely customers will have little use for it and so are in essence spending $7500 in 2017 for an 8 bit 420 camera....

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This looks a great camera but too expensive for my clients and line of work. I'm hoping this means Canon rethinks the C100 mk3 and makes it a slightly more compact and lightweight camera for run and gun. Maybe somewhere in-between the XC10 and the C100mk2 in size (with interchangeable lenses of course). Bonus features would be some kind of in body stabiliser and in cam mic (of reasonable quality). It could feature 4K 50p 1080 120p in camera but the higher end codecs you would need an Atmos or whatever. I mean make the C100 a great lightweight handheld b cam to the C200 and C300 or a quick turn around run and gun cam. (I know the C100s are kind of like that but in my experience they are still plenty heavy when run n gunning all day and after having used a camera with in body stabilisation I clearly see the benefits for handheld work) Make it 3000-3500€ and they'd have real winner on their hands.

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This thing does 4k 60p in RAW on non proprietary media, proxy on the SD, LUT monitoring, PDAF, ND Filters, XLR and a touchscreen that you can mount on a gimbal and it even includes the wifi for 7500 usd and people still complain......

They promise the XF-AVC for next year probably to not piss the C300 owners until a new version is announced.

Curious to see the RAW video quality and how is the workflow in Resolve. Most probably they use something similar to RED with JPEG2000 compression on every frame.... so it should be editable in real-time on a good PC.

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11 hours ago, Andrew Reid said:

....for many it is a job and the C200 will be perfect as a workhorse for them....But the great thing about affordable mirrorless cameras is that it gives everyone the opportunity to wrangle a £1000 toy so that it produces images that rival a £8000 workhorse....I am not going to become like C5D, NewShooter, etc. and start aiming the site solely at pros...

Thank you. BTW a lot of professional news organizations shoot video with DSLRs. They don't want or need something like a C200. Note this three-camera interview in front of the White House: https://joema.smugmug.com/Photography/ABC-News-Using-DSLRs/n-BsScJC/

CNN using 5D Mark III: https://joema.smugmug.com/Photography/CNN-Using-5D-Mark-III/n-5JqGgB/

When using camcorders, these are often quite old, e.g, this recent 60 Minutes field interview was shot with a Panasonic HMC-150. They need to upgrade to something like a DVX200, not a C200. https://joema.smugmug.com/Photography/60-Minutes-using-Panasonic-HMC/n-MFg8L9/

The lens shown on the C200 is the same Canon 24-105 f/4 used on DSLRs. Of course you can put any lens on there you want, but why use a $7500 camera with a $950 lens. Also that lens (and most in that category) are manual zoom. Does Canon have any EF lens in the price/quality range of the Sony 18-110? https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1280873-REG/sony_selp18110g_e_mount_lens.html

The 18-110 lens rehabilitates the FS5 into a camcorder but at $9300 total. That is double the price of a DVX200, and I doubt most news organizations care about the technical differences.

Field news and field documentary often uses external audio, so XLR inputs on the camera (while nice) are frequently not used or could use 1/8" input. From one viewpoint the FS5 or C200 compared to a GH5 are the world's most expensive ND filters.

 

 

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21 minutes ago, joema said:

From one viewpoint the FS5 or C200 compared to a GH5 are the world's most expensive ND filters.

 

 

On the same thinking you would say that the Alexa is the most useless camera because is not even 4k and iPhone is the best news camera, it can even live stream and it better AF than a GH5....

I think the C200 is not a camera for every task but if somebody wants high quality with high grading capability in a package that really works this is it. If I do only interviews or low cost weddings it is surely not the camera that I would buy but if I do advertisements, high value doc, etc... is imo a super device.

 

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45 minutes ago, joema said:

Thank you. BTW a lot of professional news organizations shoot video with DSLRs. They don't want or need something like a C200. Note this three-camera interview in front of the White House: https://joema.smugmug.com/Photography/ABC-News-Using-DSLRs/n-BsScJC/

CNN using 5D Mark III: https://joema.smugmug.com/Photography/CNN-Using-5D-Mark-III/n-5JqGgB/

When using camcorders, these are often quite old, e.g, this recent 60 Minutes field interview was shot with a Panasonic HMC-150. They need to upgrade to something like a DVX200, not a C200. https://joema.smugmug.com/Photography/60-Minutes-using-Panasonic-HMC/n-MFg8L9/

The lens shown on the C200 is the same Canon 24-105 f/4 used on DSLRs. Of course you can put any lens on there you want, but why use a $7500 camera with a $950 lens. Also that lens (and most in that category) are manual zoom. Does Canon have any EF lens in the price/quality range of the Sony 18-110? https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1280873-REG/sony_selp18110g_e_mount_lens.html

The 18-110 lens rehabilitates the FS5 into a camcorder but at $9300 total. That is double the price of a DVX200, and I doubt most news organizations care about the technical differences.

Field news and field documentary often uses external audio, so XLR inputs on the camera (while nice) are frequently not used or could use 1/8" input. From one viewpoint the FS5 or C200 compared to a GH5 are the world's most expensive ND filters.

 

 

What @gt3rs said. Because something is "enough", doesn't mean you have to do it the absolute minimum way. Cave and palm paintings were enough for humanoids, why do we need iMAX cinemas? I mean.. come on..

Where I disagree with @gt3rs is that, C200 IS the camera to do everything. For me the perfect combo right now is the C200+18-80 Cine lens, and you got everything, you can take this combo and do a short film, a corporate, ENG, wedding, school play, whatever you want. In 5 school plays you can get as much as a short film's work, and you got less stress! You can add up these 2 different incomes, and pay your newly bought C200! This combo is 12-13.000$ or 15.000euros. The US price is really great. It is a combo that you can use easily for the next 5-6 years (if it doesn't broke) and upgrade for workflow and production. And I am pretty sure that everyone will support whatever codec/format Canon will adapt in their latest cameras.

You can take a JVC LS300 and stick an ENG lens over there and you got it all, and the JVC is around 2650$. There are options and people can act accordingly.

Because at some point, some people used a dSLR to shoot something, doesn't make them industry standard, or most convenient for pro people - of course it doesn't make them worthless either, I just do not get your point. There are a few films shot on a mobile phone, I assure you that most people CAN'T have a great film shot on a mobile phone, some do, well done, but the exceptions are there to confirm the general rules .

The pics from the ABC interview shown some people that doesn't look at all as videographers, not even amateur ones. There is a girl nicely dressed, a guy that is holding a camera 3rd time in his life, and another one that seems like he was passing by to his way to the opera and they stopped him and give him a camera to hold. They ain't even dress as working professionals (comfortable clothes, good shoes). If you are working for an ENG day you want to feel comfortably, not sweat, not getting cold, you are about to stand most of the day, you have to hold your own equipment, etc etc. The Sound bag probably costs more than the total of their setup there (especially if he has an advanced Sound Devices and Lectrosonics!).

That Sony lens isn't that great, it is just cheap. I would rather have the 18-135, and it has a servo motor too..

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