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Panasonic FF L-mount Cine camera coming

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I bought a "consumer" Canon AE-1 body for $225 when they first came out. The price now would be about $950.  The "professional" Canon F-1 was about $310.  Today's price would be $1500. Now people complain that a "consumer" camera costs more!  Back in the 1970's none of the professional photographers I knew could afford to make movies on 16mm.  I think we are very lucky to have $2500 movie cameras now. I know you can buy a BMPCC 4K for $1000, but once users find out that movie making requires effort, they will be putting their cameras in back of the closet for their grand-kids to discover.

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EOSHD Pro Color for Sony cameras EOSHD Pro LOG for Sony CamerasEOSHD C-LOG and Film Profiles for All Canon DSLRs
9 hours ago, DBounce said:

No flip screen, no PDAF and no built in ND? Disappointing. I think Panasonic will remain a distant last place sales wise. 

Oh well, nothing to see folks, just a more usable 6k photo mode... that no one asked for.

(...) the S-series in general is a dud.

 

Why is the flip screen somehow never an issue for SONY A7 cameras? Or for the Nikon Z6 and Z7 for instance? I only seem to see that much moaning about the flipscreens on the S1/S1R.

Just read through the whole thread and you do nothing but bash the S1/S1R and the S1H, a camera none of us have seen yet. Do you have a vested interest in this somehow?

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31 minutes ago, KC Kelly said:

 I know you can buy a BMPCC 4K for $1000, but once users find out that movie making requires effort, they will be putting their cameras in back of the closet for their grand-kids to discover.

Honestly, especially for this last sentence I didn't quite understand intention of it, but never mind... But sentence about "back in 1970'..." I think that is clear - and that's exactly what is the point... after 1970's came 5DII and GH1/2 revolution, and everything changed in revolutionary way, most important comparative capability/price ratio... Now we are again in 1970's  that you remind at. G90 as consumers type with comparatively far behind specs/potential is 1300$ vs GH2 eight years ago which was less than 1000$ with comparative potential that in blind test, that included specialized movie cameras, misguided Copola. 

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18 minutes ago, KC Kelly said:

Sounds like wanting luxury car features for Yugo prices, but no one is selling Yugos any more.

Panasonic is the most expensive of the bunch... by a reasonable margin, asking $500 more than Canon or Sony... and a whopping $700 more than Nikon! Needless to mention the new Panasonic S-series cameras are reportedly selling extremely poorly. 

If early speculation about price is correct,  is a new even higher end model really the solution? 

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To me sounds like you ignore Blackmagic Pocket 4k or underestimate number or IQ of those users that will not "find out that movie making requires effort, they will be putting their cameras in back of the closet for their grand-kids to discover". At least we are in different users forum.

46 minutes ago, KC Kelly said:

Sounds like wanting luxury car features for Yugo prices, but no one is selling Yugos any more.

 

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4 hours ago, KC Kelly said:

There will be no cheap "consumer" cameras in five years.  It will either be "wannabe professional", or professional cameras.  I know that's harsh, but with smartphones taking over photos and video, limited markets mean higher per unit costs for cameras.

Yeah, this is spot on.

I’m still excited for the release and hope there are some more surprises. I really enjoy Panasonic cameras. They get a lot right with ergos and menus systems, codecs options, and firmware upgrades. I enjoy using my GH5S way more than when I had a A7iii. I think the image looks way better and has more weight to it. I’m don’t put bokeh as high on my list as other people.

I do wish though that if they can’t improve their CDAF then they should use PDAF in the meantime. I think the S1 has improved in that regard, not a leap, but a skip and a hop.

I do wish they would continue to push the boundaries like they did with the GH5 2 years ago with things like built in vari-NDs in DSLR form factor. 

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While the resolution is horrible and it may be a photoshopped image, anyone notice the big red button in place of the mode dial button on the front of the S1H? Looks like it could possibly be a record button. I guess we will know all tomorrow!

*Panasonic-DC-S1H-1.jpg.a452dc8b1807299b3d6090583acae0ce.jpg

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I am counting on the Sony being a game changer but who knows. You may think they want to protect their cine line, but Pana has a cinema line too. I think people who want a Cine camera aren't just looking at picture quality. The form factor and outputs are important. 

I think Fuji MF is catering to a different crowd than the full frame cameras anyways. Not that they couldn't bridge a gap. 

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5 hours ago, anonim said:

To me sounds like you ignore Blackmagic Pocket 4k or underestimate number or IQ of those users that will not "find out that movie making requires effort, they will be putting their cameras in back of the closet for their grand-kids to discover". At least we are in different users forum.

 

I'm not underestimating Pocket 4K users.  I contribute to a group https://filmindallas.org  I have worked on over 20 low. or no budget amateur narrative short films (not always as camera).  Cameras used were: cell phones, Canon T3i, Canon C100, GH4, GH5, BMPCC 4K, Ursa Mini, Sony A9, Sony FS 5 (or 7), EVA-1, Red Weapon X.  Lots of people show up wanting to be cinematographers because they got a new camera, but we don't see them six months later.  I will wait and see if the new S1H stands out in time.

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6 hours ago, New_E said:
 

Why is the flip screen somehow never an issue for SONY A7 cameras? Or for the Nikon Z6 and Z7 for instance? I only seem to see that much moaning about the flipscreens on the S1/S1R.

It is an issue for Sony cameras. It's one of the reasons I've chosen Panasonic cameras. You only hear the complaints about the S cameras because it's what Panasonic users expect. This is supposed to be a hybrid camera and they haven't included one of the most useful features for video shooting.

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22 hours ago, anonim said:

Perhaps BM and Z have much more flexible space for pricing, having different origin. Someone has to know anything about specific way and roots of Japan family private business and to assume that, say, fresh news about urgent obligation for Japan to purchase 105 (!) brand new F35 USA stealth aircraft  has not powerful impact on Japan's economy in total and big brand direction and decisions... in this moment of world's political/economic turning point and dangerous turmoil.

That has nothing to do with cameras though, especially specs and pricing.

Japan's debt to GDP ratio is the worst in the world, by the way, 246%. Probably that means that Japanese are not as amazing as we believe them to be. Maybe Australians (40%) and Chinese (17% but it can be substantial more in reality) they get what people want.

Definitely has something to do with leadership though. It took Nikon and Fuji ages to realize the potential of video on modern cameras, and in just 1 generation (Nikon Z) and 2 (XT-3) they are doing it right. Sony did experiment for 3 generations until delivered the A7iii that decidely turned the odds in favor of Sony. Canon did great with the first and a half generation of their C cameras, and they stayed there!

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18 hours ago, anonim said:

Probably I'm too idealist, but I firmly think that keeping and going on with once upon a time true and enough enthusiastic spirit is the most important. Isn't is so that this very forum started along with art-for-all liberation impulse given with ML Canon 5D II and, even more, with GH2? Comparatively, all movie makers world has been shaken than with quality of these cameras that stay within reach even to students and other talented dreamers... Tones of serious movies were shot with Canon as B, many as A camera (and most directors has to admit that public wouldn't notice if all works had been done with Canon), Upstream  Color was done with GH2 - because these camera indeed were comparatively so capable...  And now, it seems to me that all of us are little bit forgeting our dreamer's past - of course, now we can provide more money, now we can pay more, most of us listening GAS thirst and escaping from bore living - but comparatively equally capable successors of 5D and GH2 today don't live at home of Panasonic and Canon, simply because they don't care for that great past spirit which made them so beloved and popular.

Of course S1H or A7SIII or GH6 are/will be beast - but not  anymore for new generation of young dreamers. And me idealist feel it as a curse.

Amen to that.

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18 hours ago, anonim said:

Probably I'm too idealist, but I firmly think that keeping and going on with once upon a time true and enough enthusiastic spirit is the most important. Isn't is so that this very forum started along with art-for-all liberation impulse given with ML Canon 5D II and, even more, with GH2? Comparatively, all movie makers world has been shaken than with quality of these cameras that stay within reach even to students and other talented dreamers... Tones of serious movies were shot with Canon as B, many as A camera (and most directors has to admit that public wouldn't notice if all works had been done with Canon), Upstream  Color was done with GH2 - because these camera indeed were comparatively so capable...  And now, it seems to me that all of us are little bit forgeting our dreamer's past - of course, now we can provide more money, now we can pay more, most of us listening GAS thirst and escaping from bore living - but comparatively equally capable successors of 5D and GH2 today don't live at home of Panasonic and Canon, simply because they don't care for that great past spirit which made them so beloved and popular.

Of course S1H or A7SIII or GH6 are/will be beast - but not  anymore for new generation of young dreamers. And me idealist feel it as a curse.

Sorry to ask/remind obvious - what about Pocket 4K?

Well Fuji are certainly showing up with great affordable cameras. I don't think the dream of affordable cinema creation is lost. Today, there are also much better computers and software to make animation and cgi much easier. The cost of lighting and availability of tools such as gimbals, motorized sliders etc..., are not only lower,  but many of these tools did not even exist back then. Collaboration and distribution are easier and more accessible than ever before. 

I guess it come down to weather you view the glass as half empty, or half full.

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19 hours ago, DBounce said:

Panasonic is the most expensive of the bunch... by a reasonable margin, asking $500 more than Canon or Sony... and a whopping $700 more than Nikon! Needless to mention the new Panasonic S-series cameras are reportedly selling extremely poorly. 

If early speculation about price is correct,  is a new even higher end model really the solution? 

You mentioned it being $500 more expensive than Canon or Sony but omit some little facts

S1 vs A7III 

  • 5.76 million dot EVF vs 2.76 million dot
  • 2.1 million dot fully touch screen LCD vs 900k non fully touch LCD
  • Better built & weather sealing
  • 4K60 cropped
  • Better IBIS
  • Better menu
  • unlimited 4K30

S1 vs EOS R $2300

  • 5.76 million dot EVF vs 3.69 million dot
  • no dual card slot
  • 5D IV 2 years old sensor with worst ISO & DR
  • no 4K60
  • IBIS
  • Joystick
  • Focus bracketing
  • unlimited 4K30

Is higher end model really solution? Maybe since they aimed toward a different market that Canon EOS RP and rumored Nikon Z5 is trying to capture. 

We do not need more affordable entry Canon rebel-like camera. We have enough of that with EOS RP, EOS R, Z5. It's more churning over to cater to mass market. That's fine, but $2500 is amazing considering how much 1DXII & 5D IV used to cost when they are first announced. 

I got my S1 for $2000 and it's the best camera I've used and this is coming from someone who used A7III, A7RIII, A9, EOS R, Canon 5D IV, Canon 5D III.

All these features for $2000 while I sold my Canon 5D IV for $1750 heavily used.

 

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13 hours ago, webrunner5 said:

Yeah but a flip screen sucks ass if you use it for taking Photos.

Why would that be? I'd think a fully articulating screen would be better thann fixed screen spray & pray overhead shots at events etc.

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1 hour ago, PrometheusDM said:

You mentioned it being $500 more expensive than Canon or Sony but omit some little facts

S1 vs A7III 

  • 5.76 million dot EVF vs 2.76 million dot
  • 2.1 million dot fully touch screen LCD vs 900k non fully touch LCD
  • Better built & weather sealing
  • 4K60 cropped
  • Better IBIS
  • Better menu
  • unlimited 4K30

S1 vs EOS R $2300

  • 5.76 million dot EVF vs 3.69 million dot
  • no dual card slot
  • 5D IV 2 years old sensor with worst ISO & DR
  • no 4K60
  • IBIS
  • Joystick
  • Focus bracketing
  • unlimited 4K30

Is higher end model really solution? Maybe since they aimed toward a different market that Canon EOS RP and rumored Nikon Z5 is trying to capture. 

We do not need more affordable entry Canon rebel-like camera. We have enough of that with EOS RP, EOS R, Z5. It's more churning over to cater to mass market. That's fine, but $2500 is amazing considering how much 1DXII & 5D IV used to cost when they are first announced. 

I got my S1 for $2000 and it's the best camera I've used and this is coming from someone who used A7III, A7RIII, A9, EOS R, Canon 5D IV, Canon 5D III.

All these features for $2000 while I sold my Canon 5D IV for $1750 heavily used.

 

And you seemed to have left out a few important feature the S1 lacks...

EOS R:

1. Higher resolution sensor. 

2. The most cinematic AF system to date. With no micro-hunting as witnessed in other system. 

3. Usable AF in low light conditions down to -6EV.

4. Seamless use of legacy glass. 

5. ND adapter.

6. Robust codec.

7. Massive lens collection with included adapter.

8. Great color science.

9. More manageable size/weight... which means for many it’s more likely to be carried.

10. And most importantly... IT’S A CANON!

OK, maybe that last one is more important to some people than others, but there it is.

 

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