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DBounce

Made In China vs Made In Japan - Perception Of Quality

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6 hours ago, DBounce said:

I'm curious to learn how perceptions have changed... or if they have changed. To that end I have posted the following question.

Which of the following statements more closely reflects yours feelings? Choose A or B.

A. Made in Japan, is synonymous with Craftmanship, Precision and Reliability. Where "Made In China" means Cheap, Mass-produced, Junk.

B. Made in China, is synonymous with Craftmanship, Precision and Reliability. Where "Made In Japan" means Cheap, Mass-produced, Junk.

Junk can be made in either country, but, if you have ever dealt with a Japanese company you would know that they can be OCD about stuff, even things you might consider unimportant (which can be frustrating in itself). The chances of a quality issue slipping by are much lower with those sorts of values. But, with everything, that can be a weakness too - sometimes they get so fixated on smaller cosmetic things that they miss more important issues because they are not looking for those.

It is different in China, if there is a short cut the manufacturer thinks they can get away with, they will try it, so you have to watch them like a hawk.

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My china made S1 feel much better quality than my made in Japan R, it's all depend on the product tier I guess?

 

I think my next car will probably Chinese made electric car, both Korean and Japanese electric car cost way too much! Almost same price as Tesla model 3.

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@DBounce  

The 2 facts under that show that German cars broke more often, and have the lowest possible warranty (it is very rare for a new car to brake at the very first 2 years of ownership), plus, most of those brands have the biggest servicing and parts costs in their respected categories.

Kia/Hyundai have some of the biggest warranty in the industry and are toping all surveys and customer satisfaction questionnaires.

1) Mercedes/BMW/Mini/Porsche/VW/Skoda(VW group) are giving the lowest warranty in industry - 2 years, and together with Volvo, they are giving the lowest warranty in the auto industry.

Most give 5 years with some restriction in miles .

Top warranty in Europe:

Ford 8 years - Kia 7, Toyota 6, Hyundai 5 - but with truly unlimited miles, the only one.

2) In my country's owners satisfaction survey (that means, the owners of the cars) ,the least satisfactory cars (that means, that their owners are not happy with them, and probably won't buy again the same brand) are: 

Audi 61.5

BMW-Mini 50.5

VW 49.7

First ones?

Kia 95.1

Mazda 95

Alfa Romeo 94.7 (Alfisti are fanatics about their cars here, it is a way of life!)

Hyundai 94.6

Half with a BMW are happy with their cars, that probably paid a lot more than a Hyundai, but 95% of the Kia/Hyundai owners are happy with their cars. 

I was checking the Audi Q3 35.500euros - VW Tiguan 31.500euros and Citroen C5 Aircross 30.800euros.

The Citroen is a lot nicer in design, comfort, has a lot of extras for its price, it is fastest both in total speed and 0-60miles, it consumes less fuel, pays less taxes per year (I am not sure about the equiv. in US), pollutes less, has the biggest ground clearance in the category (23cm) and the most off road capabilities of a NON 4WD vehicle (has some extra Grip Control programs), has more boot space (by a lot) and cost a lot less money, for 5 years warranty, while the others have 2..It is not a Porsch, but not anyone is dreaming brands and badges.

Is it about money, or about happiness and ease of mind? People make choices everyday among these lines.

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There is a component of economic development involved with manufacturing, I can't find what it's called (I'm sure it'll have a name) but it goes basically like this:

  • Country decides it needs foreign investment to contribute to economic development
  • It creates a policy (potentially linked to a limited geographic area) that provides incentives for foreign investment, often waiving things like taxes, regulations or minimum wage restrictions, and potentially guaranteeing investments
  • Foreign investment starts and due to the cheap labor force, low cost manufacturing plants are created
  • These plants produce relatively low quality goods, through a combination of low-levels of initial investment in the quality of the machinery, low cost low quality raw materials, low quality workmanship due to a largely uneducated workforce
  • Over time the workforce builds a skill base and quality improves
  • Investment results in economic development and benefits to the host country
  • Over time another country sees this economic development benefit and starts it's own process, special waivers may lapse, workers may unionise, etc
  • Assuming there is profit being made then the level of quality is raised such that they differentiate their products from the new competition
  • If they don't want to raise the quality level of production then they move the operation to the new competitor country and start over again

Japan was once the poor-quality cheaper competitor to the US, but caught up, China came after Japan, which is what this thread is about, but has long since caught up, many other asian countries came after that, and over the coming decades you will start to hear about African nations getting in on this act as well.

This is an interesting list: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_technology_centers

In terms of the premise of your original multiple choice question, here's a question of my own:

  1. The question is inherently racially biased and there is no way to answer it without accepting the premise and is therefore "a trap"
  2. The question is inherently logically skewed and there is no way to answer it without accepting the premise and is therefore "a trap"

Pick one.

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57 minutes ago, kye said:

There is a component of economic development involved with manufacturing, I can't find what it's called (I'm sure it'll have a name) but it goes basically like this:

  • Country decides it needs foreign investment to contribute to economic development
  • It creates a policy (potentially linked to a limited geographic area) that provides incentives for foreign investment, often waiving things like taxes, regulations or minimum wage restrictions, and potentially guaranteeing investments
  • Foreign investment starts and due to the cheap labor force, low cost manufacturing plants are created
  • These plants produce relatively low quality goods, through a combination of low-levels of initial investment in the quality of the machinery, low cost low quality raw materials, low quality workmanship due to a largely uneducated workforce
  • Over time the workforce builds a skill base and quality improves
  • Investment results in economic development and benefits to the host country
  • Over time another country sees this economic development benefit and starts it's own process, special waivers may lapse, workers may unionise, etc
  • Assuming there is profit being made then the level of quality is raised such that they differentiate their products from the new competition
  • If they don't want to raise the quality level of production then they move the operation to the new competitor country and start over again

Japan was once the poor-quality cheaper competitor to the US, but caught up, China came after Japan, which is what this thread is about, but has long since caught up, many other asian countries came after that, and over the coming decades you will start to hear about African nations getting in on this act as well.

This is an interesting list: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_technology_centers

In terms of the premise of your original multiple choice question, here's a question of my own:

  1. The question is inherently racially biased and there is no way to answer it without accepting the premise and is therefore "a trap"
  2. The question is inherently logically skewed and there is no way to answer it without accepting the premise and is therefore "a trap"

Pick one.

Easy, I pick option two. 

Yes it’s a trap. A trap to get an honest opinion without the politically correct nonsense. If you genuinely believe that quality wise and optically Chinese lenses and cameras are better than their Japanese counterparts... regardless of price, then just vote option “B”. It’s that simple.

Now here’s the difference between you and I... trap or not, I voted in your example. I’m a free thinker with independent thought, so I will give my opinion without fear. I really wish more here would grow a spine. 

 

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7 minutes ago, DBounce said:

Easy, I pick option two. 

Yes it’s a trap. A trap to get an honest opinion without the politically correct nonsense. If you genuinely believe that quality wise and optically Chinese lenses and cameras are better than their Japanese counterparts... regardless of price, then just vote option “B”. It’s that simple.

Now here’s the difference between you and I... trap or not, I voted in your example. I’m a free thinker with independent thought, so I will give my opinion without fear. I really wish more here would grow a spine. 

Trees are:

  1. Do not exist
  2. Only exist in a parallel universe

DBounce:

  1. Is a robot
  2. Is an alien

This thread:

  1. Doesn't exist
  2. Is invisible

Everyone is:

  1. A murderer
  2. A mass murderer

etc...

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My view of Chinese gear has changed significantly over the last ten and even five years. Ten years ago it very much was "well, you get what you paid for." Things were cheaply made and would often fall apart. 

That started to change around five years ago. It was around then that you really started to see high quality stuff coming out of Japan. I think you can kinda of trace the change with the quality of GoPro knock offs, because those were the first things I really noticed people giving positive feedback on. The first ones were garbage, but around 2014/2015 you started to hear about Yi and SJCAM putting out good quality ones. Also around that time you started to see lights coming out of China that were comparable to much more expensive lighting, and then the flood gates kinda opened with quality budget options for everything from mics to gimbals. 

In many ways it has killed the DIY filmmaking scene. I remember when people would carry around DIY light set ups to shoots; they'd go all out trying to make them look as professional as possible. Now everyone has affordable Chinese lights. It's kinda sad, cause the DIY era was the most fun era for me. But it's hard to justify spending hours building a light panel when you can buy some that cost less than the parts you'd need to make your own. 

Seems cameras and lenses are the next phase. That first Z-Cam wasn't particularly impressive, but the second one and their cinema cameras are. I think the Pocket4K really kinda stole their thunder though. 

Still there's a lot of garbage coming out of China. I don't stray far from the recognizable companies making stuff there. 

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10 minutes ago, kye said:

Trees are:

  1. Do not exist
  2. Only exist in a parallel universe

DBounce:

  1. Is a robot
  2. Is an alien

This thread:

  1. Doesn't exist
  2. Is invisible

Everyone is:

  1. A murderer
  2. A mass murderer

etc...

Your example make no sense. I merely ask which statement more closely reflects the subject’s view. 

And btw... you still haven’t answered. 

10 minutes ago, newfoundmass said:

My view of Chinese gear has changed significantly over the last ten and even five years. Ten years ago it very much was "well, you get what you paid for." Things were cheaply made and would often fall apart. 

That started to change around five years ago. It was around then that you really started to see high quality stuff coming out of Japan. I think you can kinda of trace the change with the quality of GoPro knock offs, because those were the first things I really noticed people giving positive feedback on. The first ones were garbage, but around 2014/2015 you started to hear about Yi and SJCAM putting out good quality ones. Also around that time you started to see lights coming out of China that were comparable to much more expensive lighting, and then the flood gates kinda opened with quality budget options for everything from mics to gimbals. 

In many ways it has killed the DIY filmmaking scene. I remember when people would carry around DIY light set ups to shoots; they'd go all out trying to make them look as professional as possible. Now everyone has affordable Chinese lights. It's kinda sad, cause the DIY era was the most fun era for me. But it's hard to justify spending hours building a light panel when you can buy some that cost less than the parts you'd need to make your own. 

Seems cameras and lenses are the next phase. That first Z-Cam wasn't particularly impressive, but the second one and their cinema cameras are. I think the Pocket4K really kinda stole their thunder though. 

Still there's a lot of garbage coming out of China. I don't stray far from the recognizable companies making stuff there. 

So like I said, there are some higher quality exceptions... but lots of crap also. iPhone is made in China... Aputure makes great lights... and I pointed out that high quality products can be made anywhere... but Chinese quality is often hit or miss. 

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18 minutes ago, DBounce said:

Your example make no sense. I merely ask which statement more closely reflects the subject’s view. 

And btw... you still haven’t answered. 

My examples make no sense because neither option fits reality.  I haven't answered your question because neither of the options fit my reality.

You're assuming that I have any kind of preference or difference of view.  I did answer - I gave a history and explanation of manufacturing in the context of economic development.

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I was referring more about Chinese companies in my post, as opposed to just products made in China. Product quality can be hit or miss wherever its made, really. I think China gets a bad rap because so much comes out of there, more than any other country on earth, from a wide variety of manufacturers. 

If China was, in general, a country that made shoddy products we'd be pretty fucked because even things that aren't made in China often have parts sourced from China. 

A huge chunk of televisions sold in the US these days are Chinese made or from Chinese companies. Look at TCL and the deals they've made with brands and retailers. 

We're a long way from the days when I was a kid and you'd hear regularly about recalls for toys made in China because they were made with lead paints. 

Basically, China makes great products and so does Japan, Japan just has a longer history of providing stuff to the US and global markets, whether it's electronics or automobiles. 

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Japan is F ed because they have as many old people as young people. Germany has too many people that want to work 32 hours and have half the year Holiday's same as England and France. The US States is becoming the same. If you aren't willing to work, someone else is. Hence, China is willing to hang your ass out, de-liberty so.

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China is leading the world in many innovations right now. From medicine to space. China is too big and too important. It almost wasn't a factor a few decades ago. 

Mercedes just signed to make all the new Smart cars in China, and the company is 50-50%! The Germans gave equal rights to the Chinese for a brand they have created years ago. That says a lot about Chinese power. Germans will make only the design, all the rest are going to be Chinese.

https://www.dw.com/en/daimler-and-geely-team-up-to-build-smart-cars-in-china/a-48093793

and 

"Geely's billionaire owner Li Shufu is Daimler's biggest shareholder. He acquired a ten percent holding in the company in 2018, raising concerns about Beijing's ambitions in Germany."

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1 hour ago, DBounce said:

Your example make no sense. I merely ask which statement more closely reflects the subject’s view. 

And btw... you still haven’t answered. 

So like I said, there are some higher quality exceptions... but lots of crap also. iPhone is made in China... Aputure makes great lights... and I pointed out that high quality products can be made anywhere... but Chinese quality is often hit or miss. 

I think it just has to do with how reputable the business is rather than where their products are made. So like in the case of Fuji even though they switched manufacturing to China you could assume their products haven't dropped in quality. 

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54 minutes ago, webrunner5 said:

Japan is F ed because they have as many old people as young people. Germany has too many people that want to work 32 hours and have half the year Holiday's same as England and France. The US States is becoming the same. If you aren't willing to work, someone else is. Hence, China is willing to hang your ass out, de-liberty so.

To be fair, I don't think it's a lack of desire to work as much as, working 40 hours a week at a job you almost assuredly hate, to enrichen people that already have more money than they'll ever know what to do with, has younger generations thinking "what the fuck?" 

The older generations were sold on an American Dream that never really happened for a large majority of Americans. I'd say probably half of my friends that graduated college had to find work for this other than they're majors. I know college graduates who deliver pizza because they can't afford to start at $12-15 an hour in their field. My friend makes I think $10 an hour plus tips delivering pizza. Long term he'd be better off with the $15 an hour job, but between his college loans and living expenses, he'd be worse off. 

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1 hour ago, newfoundmass said:

To be fair, I don't think it's a lack of desire to work as much as, working 40 hours a week at a job you almost assuredly hate, to enrichen people that already have more money than they'll ever know what to do with, has younger generations thinking "what the fuck?" 

The older generations were sold on an American Dream that never really happened for a large majority of Americans. I'd say probably half of my friends that graduated college had to find work for this other than they're majors. I know college graduates who deliver pizza because they can't afford to start at $12-15 an hour in their field. My friend makes I think $10 an hour plus tips delivering pizza. Long term he'd be better off with the $15 an hour job, but between his college loans and living expenses, he'd be worse off. 

Lots of college degrees aren't worth much. Really just have to pick a lucrative field or be content barely getting by doing something you love or actually want to do.  

The whole college situation in the US(can't speak for the rest of the world) is a racket. I am not saying that degrees are worthless, but the system in place is terrible. 

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9 hours ago, Kisaha said:

In my country's owners satisfaction survey the last ones,  are: 

Audi 61.5

BMW-Mini 50.5

VW 49.7

First ones?

Kia 95.1

Mazda 95

Alfa Romeo 94.7 (Alfisti are fanatics about their cars here, it is a way of life!)

Hyundai 94.6

If you put those people who bought BMW/Mercedes into kia/hyundai it would be something like 1.4 satisfaction :).

Satisfaction is highly correlated with expectation.

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34 minutes ago, thebrothersthre3 said:

Lots of college degrees aren't worth much. 

I've always looked at degrees as a way to prove to early employers that you're able to commit to something longterm, see it through to the end and put all of your attention into it. No matter what courses you choose,  it shows that you believe in yourself, and you see that it's worth investing thousands of dollars into yourself, knowing you'll be able to make it back. I feel like even a degree in something unrelated to what you want to do for work is worth more than no degree in the first place. 

That said, I studied in the UK, where the price of college education is a fraction of what it is in America, so maybe in the US it's smarter not to think of it in such a way.

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Fallacious arguments and bias party !

Someone here appropriated too much Schopenhauer's  "Art of being right"...
712413938_41fiUCrKT7L._SX331_BO1204203200_.jpg.05e7c6ba9711b20767125d04823b157b.jpg

Mixing up facts and opinions, putting forward the "free thinking" and "independent thought" argument, bringing on the "fear" and political correctness that one bravely overcomes to tell the truth, and wish more "sheeps" could access this level of "awareness"...

Congrats. Flat earthers and trendy conspiracy theorists use exactly the same mechanism...

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