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Panasonic GH6 rumours


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2 minutes ago, Marcio Kabke Pinheiro said:

Some tidbits that i noted in quick readings (don't have time now for full reviews):

- As said in the response above, looks like that Panasonic is REALLY not using a Sony sensor this time - that explains the odd 25mp resolution;

- AF-ON button, finally m4/3 cameras have a proper one. Hope that it goes down the lines (if there will be any);

- The camera have the same weather sealing resistance as the GH5 - the fan part is sealed from the electronics inside;

- The promised firmware update to record in external SSD drives using the USB port is a huge bonus;

Looks like a very solid camera - and maybe with some tweaks, the AF could work for a lot of cases, for sure less than the competition.

Forget the audio part - dedicated button to bring the audio settings, and native 4-track audio?

@IronFilm will be delighted. 🙂
 

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EOSHD Pro Color 5 for Sony cameras EOSHD Z LOG for Nikon CamerasEOSHD C-LOG and Film Profiles for All Canon DSLRs

media division have or had a gh6 haven't watch the whole thing yet  but thought some of you might find it interesting 

 so has anamorphics on a budget

and last but not least camera conspiracies 

 

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"GH6 offers a new “dynamic range boost” mode, where two ISO values (ISO 800 and 2000) are combined into a single exposure".

 

You know, you have to use this method when your sensor is not isoless. Sony sensors are isoless from iso 500, which means iso 500 is so clean that for any higher iso you don't get cleaner image using "analog" amplification, so you stop there and lift the shadows logarithmically to save the highlights. So your iso 6400 shot is not really iso 6400, its iso 500 or 800, plus lifted shadows.

Arri had to use that tech because back then cmos sensors readout were really noisy, so analog amplification at high iso could help a lot. 

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@Eric Calabros "Isoless" is more of a photography camera term isn't it? In any case for video, Panasonic introduced Dual Native ISO on VariCam and Sony Followed suit on Venice and that particular tech trickled-down to their mirrorless video oriented cams: A7S3, GH5S etc. 

This ARRI inspired DGA/DGO tech works different and its purpose is indeed to "boost DR" not high-ISO performance like Dual Native ISO sensors. 

By the way, dpreview gives this interesting tidbit of info:

Panasonic is being distinctly tight-lipped about the fabrication process, which strongly suggests the camera isn't using the Stacked CMOS technology that's underpinned the latest generation of high-end cameras. Although we don't have absolute confirmation, we think it's extremely likely to be a BSI design. The GH6's sensor, which we're told is 'not made by the company everyone always assumes we use,' features a dual output gain design. This is not to be confused with the switchabledual gain sensors we've seen in an increasing majority of modern cameras, but instead is closer to the design used in Arri and some Canon cinema cameras. The sensor has two, parallel output paths and at high ISO settings, the output from both paths is combined to give both highlight and shadow detail.

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1 hour ago, Eric Calabros said:

"GH6 offers a new “dynamic range boost” mode, where two ISO values (ISO 800 and 2000) are combined into a single exposure".

You know, you have to use this method when your sensor is not isoless. Sony sensors are isoless from iso 500, which means iso 500 is so clean that for any higher iso you don't get cleaner image using "analog" amplification, so you stop there and lift the shadows logarithmically to save the highlights. So your iso 6400 shot is not really iso 6400, its iso 500 or 800, plus lifted shadows.

Arri had to use that tech because back then cmos sensors readout were really noisy, so analog amplification at high iso could help a lot. 

I suspect that it'll take a while to really understand what this tech is, means, and how to get the most from it. 

It's a different way of thinking about things compared to 'normal' or dual-ISO sensors.

27 minutes ago, Robert Patts said:

Weird. Newsshooter did actual testing and it was 192ms...same as I have found on the S series.

Yeah, the delay in their video was huge!

Firmware version perhaps?  or a resolution / HDMI version mismatch perhaps? I can't think of what else would cause such a big difference..

7 minutes ago, Django said:

@Eric Calabros "Isoless" is more of a photography camera term isn't it? In any case for video, Panasonic introduced Dual Native ISO on VariCam and Sony Followed suit on Venice and that particular tech trickled-down to their mirrorless video oriented cams: A7S3, GH5S etc. 

This ARRI inspired DGA/DGO tech works different and its purpose is indeed to "boost DR" not high-ISO performance like Dual Native ISO sensors. 

By the way, dpreview gives this interesting tidbit of info:

Panasonic is being distinctly tight-lipped about the fabrication process, which strongly suggests the camera isn't using the Stacked CMOS technology that's underpinned the latest generation of high-end cameras. Although we don't have absolute confirmation, we think it's extremely likely to be a BSI design. The GH6's sensor, which we're told is 'not made by the company everyone always assumes we use,' features a dual output gain design. This is not to be confused with the switchabledual gain sensors we've seen in an increasing majority of modern cameras, but instead is closer to the design used in Arri and some Canon cinema cameras. The sensor has two, parallel output paths and at high ISO settings, the output from both paths is combined to give both highlight and shadow detail.

It is a little confusing...

One thing that's interesting is CineD tested the GH6 to be 11 with Prores, and the P4K at about 11.6-11.7.  

(Source is from the CineD test on the P6K where they talk about the P4K in passing: https://www.cined.com/blackmagic-pocket-cinema-camera-6k-lab-test-dynamic-range-latitude-rolling-shutter-more/ )

So, the P4K with same sensor area and only a single gain stage gets better DR, which supports the idea that the GH6 sensor isn't the latest tech, but a smarter architecture and an older tech perhaps?

If it is a BSI sensor - what advantages would that have?

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20 minutes ago, kye said:

I suspect that it'll take a while to really understand what this tech is, means, and how to get the most from it. 

It's a different way of thinking about things compared to 'normal' or dual-ISO sensors.

Yeah, the delay in their video was huge!

Firmware version perhaps?  or a resolution / HDMI version mismatch perhaps? I can't think of what else would cause such a big difference..

It is a little confusing...

One thing that's interesting is CineD tested the GH6 to be 11 with Prores, and the P4K at about 11.6-11.7.  

(Source is from the CineD test on the P6K where they talk about the P4K in passing: https://www.cined.com/blackmagic-pocket-cinema-camera-6k-lab-test-dynamic-range-latitude-rolling-shutter-more/ )

So, the P4K with same sensor area and only a single gain stage gets better DR, which supports the idea that the GH6 sensor isn't the latest tech, but a smarter architecture and an older tech perhaps?

If it is a BSI sensor - what advantages would that have?

Just checked the CineD labtest and it says a bit more than that:

About 12 stops can be identified above the noise floor, plus a faint 13th and a hint of a 14th stop.

What's most interesting is DR increases in H265 to 11.5-12.8! They conclude:

So, you actually have a nice choice here: ProRes HQ preserves the “raw” sensor image in a better way leaving all options for postprocessing but is a tad noisier, whereas H265 is very efficient in storage space and gives good DR values out of the box without the need for much postprocessing. 

But the DR latitude test is really where this DGA/DGO tech usually shines and sure enough:

All in all, that leads to 7 stops of exposure latitude (3 over to 4 under)! Wow, that is really good for an MFT camera – it is actually on the same level like the full-frame Sony a7S III which is using a 4 times larger (full-frame) sensor. 

The best (consumer) full-frame cameras like the Panasonic S1H or the Sony A1 manage 8 stops of exposure latitude. For reference, the ARRI Alexa Mini LF that we tested here showed 10 stops of exposure latitude (5 over to 5 under). 

So all in all pretty damn impressive results from this little sensor!!!

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24 minutes ago, kye said:

If it is a BSI sensor - what advantages would that have?

At 25MP the pixel pitch is quite small so I would assume BSI would help here by increasing surface area on sensor to capture light.

Not sure if it is a stacked design or not.

It is a very interesting development if it turns out not to be manufactured by Sony. Sony doesn’t have any cameras with the dual gain simultaneously readout. Makes me think there is an association/collaboration with Canon or whoever makes ARRI sensor. 

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This not being a Sony sensor is very interesting, and perhaps a good sign moving forward not just for Panasonic but the industry as a whole. It's not good for the industry for everyone to get their sensors from the same company, especially when that company is also a competitor. 

26 minutes ago, Video Hummus said:

It is a very interesting development if it turns out not to be manufactured by Sony. Sony doesn’t have any cameras with the dual gain simultaneously readout. Makes me think there is an association/collaboration with Canon or whoever makes ARRI sensor. 

I'm not as knowledgeable about sensors as a lot of folks are, but could it possibly be Samsung? Or is that dumb/unlikely? 

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Just a few random thoughts from a current (and I know some will find hard to believe, happy) Panasonic customer, me...

Hrmm...no organic sensor equals no global shutter equals no voltage controlled internal variable ND filtering equals no 15-plus stops DR. Sorry Panasonic, you've had nearly 10-years to get that sensor technology out of the garage workshop and into an actual product, in the politest of terms, kindly stop talking about it in your press releases. FWIW, if Apple took that long from announcing their M1 chip technology from development to purchasable products their user base and investors would have been howling at how slow and ineffectual they were as a tech company, the same holds true for AMD and their Ryzen tech. You get no free pass here, nor any sympathies from me.

FWIW, you burned me as an early adopter of your S1 cameras (I own 2) with my having to pay for both the CFExpress/XQD slot and the expensive cards to fill them for which you never provided any functionality which would ever require those bit rates. As a result I will not be an early adopter for you with this release.

On the plus side, your finally making it possible to record audio at 240fps is welcome and long-overdue addition (something that has long existed in my iPhone8+, as I mentioned to one of your reps several years ago at PDN Expo when the GH5S could not do so) and it will find use for my nature/wildlife/birding needs. Also the announced internal 10-bit ALL-I and ProRes recording will be most welcome, however, internal ProRes RAW is a must-need to any purchase decision, internal RAW being a "thing" now amongst your competitors.

Now, a 10K downsampled 8K S1 Mark II with a No-OLPF organic sensor and S1H flippy screen and a powered Mark II DMW-MS2 mic would solve all of the above and, in fact, would negate any need for lugging around an MFT body for a lone wildlife life shooter like myself. So, um, let's see what you can do...a 10th anniversary celebration of the organic sensor announcement might be a good time.

Disclaimer: I am a happy S1 user and I also funded a G9, lots of PL glass and 2- FZ1000's for my sweetie and I to enjoy, we love what you've done with that level of CMOS imaging capabilities-turned-user-friendly-cameras, truly. However, It's long past time that you moved on with your promised technology.

All of the above (meant to inspire and shame simultaneously), IMHO.

Jimmy G 🙂

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I know Gerald is apparently in vogue as the reviewer to bash, but honestly I got a lot more from his preview than from the others I watched (including Media Division).

 

1. He had that shot out a window that clearly and concisely showed the impact of engaging DR Boost

 

2. He whacked the camera around to show how good the RS performs

 

3. Sure, his “is dead” statement is clickbaity, but heck, he laments even having to drop a video at embargo lift. He knows what he’s doing, it’s just how it has to be done to a certain extent, and most importantly, if you pay attention to his justification for personally declaring that, HE’S RIGHT.

 

Anyone who follows sensor tech and the signal processing along with it will recognize that he gave grounded reasons. For what it is, the performance is incredible, but they can’t cheat the physics of smaller sensors. I think the GH6 will serve many serious creators well, just like every other GH before it, but we’re now at a juncture where Panasonic has larger sensors in the game as an alternative. On paper, I think what most (if not all) the reviewers have missed though is its strengths versus the S-Series, which fill in some (not all) gaps, making it a VERY attractive B-Cam. Most importantly, they’ve managed full V-Log, so matching should be a breeze. And secondly, where DR is M4/3’s Achilles Heel, RS is Full Frame’s! The GH6 has piles of VERY high quality HFR AND low rolling Shutter. 
 

If you have an S-Series body, and need a second camera, I think the GH6 adds more flexibility to your arsenal than a second S-Series body would.

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Also, in the official Lumix launch video Matt was talking about in the USA they will be offering free CFExpress Cards with preorders. He was very specific about telling people that the cards will support all recording formats (so it isn't some cheap card) and all FUTURE recording formats that are coming and he was hinting that there was more to come. He also misspoke about being able to shoot ProRes RAW and then caught himself.

I honestly think this camera is going to get Internal ProRes RAW recording in firmware update down the line.

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1 hour ago, newfoundmass said:

I'm not as knowledgeable about sensors as a lot of folks are, but could it possibly be Samsung? Or is that dumb/unlikely?

I mean Samsung could be one of the few companies to make something like this. I'm not sure though. Hopefully someone with some knowledge can clear it up.

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26 minutes ago, Caleb Genheimer said:

I know Gerald is apparently in vogue as the reviewer to bash, but honestly I got a lot more from his preview than from the others I watched (including Media Division).

 

1. He had that shot out a window that clearly and concisely showed the impact of engaging DR Boost

 

2. He whacked the camera around to show how good the RS performs

 

3. Sure, his “is dead” statement is clickbaity, but heck, he laments even having to drop a video at embargo lift. He knows what he’s doing, it’s just how it has to be done to a certain extent, and most importantly, if you pay attention to his justification for personally declaring that, HE’S RIGHT.

 

Anyone who follows sensor tech and the signal processing along with it will recognize that he gave grounded reasons. For what it is, the performance is incredible, but they can’t cheat the physics of smaller sensors. I think the GH6 will serve many serious creators well, just like every other GH before it, but we’re now at a juncture where Panasonic has larger sensors in the game as an alternative. On paper, I think what most (if not all) the reviewers have missed though is its strengths versus the S-Series, which fill in some (not all) gaps, making it a VERY attractive B-Cam. Most importantly, they’ve managed full V-Log, so matching should be a breeze. And secondly, where DR is M4/3’s Achilles Heel, RS is Full Frame’s! The GH6 has piles of VERY high quality HFR AND low rolling Shutter. 
 

If you have an S-Series body, and need a second camera, I think the GH6 adds more flexibility to your arsenal than a second S-Series body would.

Agreed. Gerald kinda stuck his neck out there, but I think he’s right: if ultimate image quality is your primary goal, m43 isn’t the right choice plain and simple. The GH6 is the very best the system can offer and it’s still not as good an image as the entry level FF S5. Still, it’s a superrrrr compelling camera if you’re fully invested in m43. 

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11 minutes ago, Caleb Genheimer said:

I know Gerald is apparently in vogue as the reviewer to bash, but honestly I got a lot more from his preview than from the others I watched (including Media Division).

 

1. He had that shot out a window that clearly and concisely showed the impact of engaging DR Boost

 

2. He whacked the camera around to show how good the RS performs

 

3. Sure, his “is dead” statement is clickbaity, but heck, he laments even having to drop a video at embargo lift. He knows what he’s doing, it’s just how it has to be done to a certain extent, and most importantly, if you pay attention to his justification for personally declaring that, HE’S RIGHT.

 

Anyone who follows sensor tech and the signal processing along with it will recognize that he gave grounded reasons. For what it is, the performance is incredible, but they can’t cheat the physics of smaller sensors. I think the GH6 will serve many serious creators well, just like every other GH before it, but we’re now at a juncture where Panasonic has larger sensors in the game as an alternative. On paper, I think what most (if not all) the reviewers have missed though is its strengths versus the S-Series, which fill in some (not all) gaps, making it a VERY attractive B-Cam. Most importantly, they’ve managed full V-Log, so matching should be a breeze. And secondly, where DR is M4/3’s Achilles Heel, RS is Full Frame’s! The GH6 has piles of VERY high quality HFR AND low rolling Shutter. 
 

If you have an S-Series body, and need a second camera, I think the GH6 adds more flexibility to your arsenal than a second S-Series body would.

I think he kinda missed the entire point.

It is fine to compare it to a FF camera competitor. I don't have a problem with that.

It is however kinda like comparing a compact suped up Hatchback to a sports car. Sure, it won't be as fast and have a bigger engine but people still really enjoy driving the hatchback for many reasons and thats the entire fucking point!

I honestly think the tone of the video was very weird. He was lamenting that a MFT camera wasn't a FF camera. He wasn't excited at all that a MFT camera could keep up with FF. He didn't even touch on the subject of what this kind of tech in a FF Panasonic camera could do. It was just this odd, apparently painful, review of a product. Why didn't he just objectively review it like all his other product reviews?

I think the ending was just painful to watch. Claiming MFT is dead FOR HIM and then titling his video with LAST MFT camera is just fucking ridiculous from Gerald and flys in the face of all his other great videos that don't have shitty clickbait titles like this one. I mean, what was he expecting?...The GH6 to fold out a FF sensor with 15 stops of dynamic range to best the mighty A7SIII?

Potato Jet did a much better job of just showing footage and comparing it to other cameras with excitement and objectivity. Gene was pretty excited it kept up with a A7SIII, which is amazing for a sensor that small.

Will I buy this camera? Probably not right now. But kudos to Panasonic for basically improving on almost all aspects of the GH5, including that damn DfD AF. It looks like they revamped the entire imaging pipeline from hardware to video file.

  • Way better screen design
  • Better lowlight
  • Better highlight retention with DR boost (looks like a respectable 11.5 stops in H265 modes).
  • Internal ProRes! (and I suspect ProRes RAW in future firmware)
  • Improved IBIS performance in video (it looks damn good without very little wobble)
  • Ability to punch-in zoom while recording
  • 200 FPS in FHD with autofocus without VFR
  • 48 FPS

I'm sure I'm missing a few. If it had PDAF I would be considering the GH6 over something like the R5C for sure.

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has anyone made any comparisons to what seems to me like an obvious similar product, the p4k? or has anyone tried to make anything resembling something a well lit and good looking short? or has anyone tried to record some intentful footage using cine lenses?

also expecting internal prores raw is goofy. glad they did regular prores, something that should be a bare minimum on any camera tbh

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4 hours ago, Eric Calabros said:

"GH6 offers a new “dynamic range boost” mode, where two ISO values (ISO 800 and 2000) are combined into a single exposure".

 

You know, you have to use this method when your sensor is not isoless. Sony sensors are isoless from iso 500, which means iso 500 is so clean that for any higher iso you don't get cleaner image using "analog" amplification, so you stop there and lift the shadows logarithmically to save the highlights. So your iso 6400 shot is not really iso 6400, its iso 500 or 800, plus lifted shadows.

Arri had to use that tech because back then cmos sensors readout were really noisy, so analog amplification at high iso could help a lot. 

I guess that ISO invariance apply to RAW files, not compressed video (but I could be wrong).

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