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11 hours ago, Xavier Plagaro Mussard said:

Until a couple of years ago. Now people with their full name and with a profile picture of their family, posts in FB wishing death to someone else. It is sad, more than anything.

But adults are turning into rabid teenagers with zero responsibility.  

Well that's pretty poor.

I don't use Facebook (other than occasionally Marketplace or something specific by a friend or family that I have been alerted to) but had to de-friend my own father a couple of years ago as he was such an internet troll/keyboard warrior.

I have zero time for this kind of shit.

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11 hours ago, Andrew Reid said:

I think it's obvious what it's about, and I fully agree with him.

I meant I don't know why he blew his top like that. Why not write a reasoned post about why and if he has the goods that are so bad outline them and then exit the scene. I can understand the anger and all but just trashing people on twitter looks bad and doesn't help him communicate his case to others. People instantly got defensive. But perhaps it all doesn't matter what he says the ugly machine will keep rolling.

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9 hours ago, Video Hummus said:

I meant I don't know why he blew his top like that. Why not write a reasoned post about why and if he has the goods that are so bad outline them and then exit the scene. I can understand the anger and all but just trashing people on twitter looks bad and doesn't help him communicate his case to others. People instantly got defensive. But perhaps it all doesn't matter what he says the ugly machine will keep rolling.

I don't have any information about what happened in this instance, but a very common behavioural pattern is where "bad faith actors" pursue a continued campaign of behaviour that gradually builds up pressure on someone and then that person explodes.

The tricky part is that the campaign that pushed that person to explode will likely be a combination of:

  • things done in public that are only very slightly over the line of acceptable behaviour and aren't "worthy" of making a serious complaint about because each on in isolation looks harmless
  • things done in private that are definitely over the line but for various reasons are either inappropriate to share or where sharing them would come at a significant cost

Perhaps a third factor in play here is directing (or not discouraging) other people from attacking the person as well.  Kind of like being bullied by someones entire friendship group rather than that person on their own.

So these things gradually build up over time, and the cumulative effects get under the skin of the target, and then they explode, and from the outside it looks completely inappropriate, like a huge over-reaction, and as it is a very emotional moment will probably not be expressed rationally or calmly.  

This explosion is the goal of the people doing the targeting and provides the perfect excuse for them to hold up their hands and say both "wow - where did that come from - I had nothing to do with that" and also "see - that person is crazy - you don't know how they've been treating me in private - this explains those times you saw me being mean to them".

I've seen lots of people seriously damage their careers because of workplace bullying that plays out like this.  It's very common.

I get the impression that anyone with any public following has to learn to deal with this.  YouTubers routinely talk about how they got big and then the hate started and that it took them a while to learn how to deal with it.

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On 2/5/2022 at 5:15 PM, Xavier Plagaro Mussard said:

Until a couple of years ago. Now people with their full name and with a profile picture of their family, posts in FB wishing death to someone else. It is sad, more than anything.

But adults are turning into rabid teenagers with zero responsibility.  

Yeah, I'll see someone I know say something incredibly disrespectful to me because we disagree on politics, but then when I see them at the grocery store it's all smiles and asking how my family is doing, etc. When I tell them to fuck off (quite literally) they act shocked and confused.

I don't mean to paint all older folks with the same brush, but people that didn't use the internet much all the sudden became super connected once smart phones took over the market and immediately became the shittiest users on the internet. Now your 60 year old aunt spends most of her day shit posting and making casual racist comments on Facebook but wonders why things are now awkward with you on holidays. 

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1 hour ago, newfoundmass said:

Yeah, I'll see someone I know say something incredibly disrespectful to me because we disagree on politics, but then when I see them at the grocery store it's all smiles and asking how my family is doing, etc. When I tell them to fuck off (quite literally) they act shocked and confused.

Somehow I think the logic is back to front here. I have always felt comfortable telling my friends that 'I think they are talking absolute garbage' when I think they are. It would shock me if I subsequently met them in a 'grocery store' (full stop.) But if I did and I enquired about their family, I would be pretty surprised if they told me to 'fuck off'.

 

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2 hours ago, newfoundmass said:

I don't mean to paint all older folks with the same brush, but people that didn't use the internet much all the sudden became super connected once smart phones took over the market and immediately became the shittiest users on the internet. Now your 60 year old aunt spends most of her day shit posting and making casual racist comments on Facebook but wonders why things are now awkward with you on holidays.

Both my father and mother-in-law. To a T. 

I block my father on social. My wife blocks her mother. They are like out of control rabid kids. With tourettes.

Actually what @kye has mentioned about workplace issues, I have experienced twice. 

Not actual bullying (good luck with that, - I don't wish to sound macho or anything, but just good luck with that with me...) but behind the scenes manipulation of other folks over a prolonged period of time.

Both cases, photographers hiding behind on-line personas (in one of the cases, pretending to be a bride...which he wan't), over a period of time and with butter that would not melt in their mouth, slowly beavering away at under-mining the foundations.

And for a while, they made progress but then their behaviour came to light.

Or rather the incidences did and then after investigation, the culprits were brought to the surface.

They were dealt with publicly. No fuss, no drama, no shit-talk, - the facts simply presented.

Neither are still in business.

Speaking generally, it is what it is though, - part the 'fault' of the existence of the internet and partly the steady erosion of society. 

Actually, I think the two go hand in hand and whilst neither is responsible for the other, they both add fuel to each others fires.

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6 hours ago, newfoundmass said:

Yeah, I'll see someone I know say something incredibly disrespectful to me because we disagree on politics, but then when I see them at the grocery store it's all smiles and asking how my family is doing, etc. When I tell them to fuck off (quite literally) they act shocked and confused.

I don't mean to paint all older folks with the same brush, but people that didn't use the internet much all the sudden became super connected once smart phones took over the market and immediately became the shittiest users on the internet. Now your 60 year old aunt spends most of her day shit posting and making casual racist comments on Facebook but wonders why things are now awkward with you on holidays. 

I'm not really connected to older folks who behave badly on social media, but I do remember that my grandma, who was a sweet old lady well into her 70/80s at this point, would occasionally decide to add to the fun and enjoyment of a family gathering by telling an amazingly racist joke.  Sometimes in the middle of a busy cafe in the middle of Sunday brunch that we were having for someones birthday or something.  She'd finish the joke, there would be stunned silence, and someone would change the subject and we'd all move on, with her being at a loss as to why no-one laughed.

I realise that's different to what we're mostly talking about here, which is being knowingly awful to people online, but I remember in one particularly cringeworthy event she told a racist joke about one nationality and the table next to us was full of people from that same nationality, and I remember hoping they hadn't overheard.

I guess there's cluelessness, and then maliciousness.  People online probably have a mixture of both, sadly.

3 hours ago, MrSMW said:

Actually what @kye has mentioned about workplace issues, I have experienced twice. 

Not actual bullying (good luck with that, - I don't wish to sound macho or anything, but just good luck with that with me...) but behind the scenes manipulation of other folks over a prolonged period of time.

Both cases, photographers hiding behind on-line personas (in one of the cases, pretending to be a bride...which he wan't), over a period of time and with butter that would not melt in their mouth, slowly beavering away at under-mining the foundations.

And for a while, they made progress but then their behaviour came to light.

Or rather the incidences did and then after investigation, the culprits were brought to the surface.

They were dealt with publicly. No fuss, no drama, no shit-talk, - the facts simply presented.

Neither are still in business.

My theory is that this prolonged underhanded behaviour relies on it triggering an emotional response in the recipient for it to work.  In situations where that doesn't occur, the recipient basically ignores the behaviour until such a time as it becomes preferable to deal with it, in which case the response is calm and firm.  In such cases I think that it tends to work because the underhanded people realise that it's not working.

It sounds like that might be the case for you as well.  

Certainly the YouTubers and public personalities I've heard talk about it say they had to work through a time when it affected them, but came out the other side stronger and with strategies for managing it.  I'm not saying that the bad behaviour is excusable, but I think it's a factor of life and the best strategy is to somehow become ok with it, however it is that you can achieve that.  

I'd imagine that the more famous / rich / respected you get the more people will come after you and the harder they'll do so, which just means that if you're growing your career or profile that it's a constant challenge and potentially requires more and more effort or energy to go into that.  Perhaps the culmination of that curve is that presidents require security to prevent being assassinated, billionaires and celebrities require bodyguards, security systems, and live in gated communities (at least in most countries in the world) etc.  

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Which reminds me that I received an email the other day from a company offering to actually do negative stuff on-line and on social media in regard to competitors.

Beyond words.

I have done a small amount of 'industrial espionage' in the past regarding a couple of competitors re. pricing (as is done to me quite regularly, some of which I can spot, most of it not) but actually takes steps to actively attack someone?

I'll see if I can dig it out...

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On 2/6/2022 at 2:12 AM, Andrew Reid said:

I think it's obvious what it's about, and I fully agree with him.

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The social media abuse is one thing but I'd like to bring this topic back to what Canon Rumors guy says in his actual tweets above.

I am interested to hear all your opinions on this more so than anything else.

50K ad guys

CR guy falling out with YouTubers

Gannon at DPReview (who writes all the clickbait on the news feed)

Industry is turning into a cess pit and it isn't much fun to be involved in it.

Unless the audience and consumers turn away from this and stop watching, stop clicking, stop endorsing, the problem of cronyism is going to get worse.

Why aren't we on Roger Deakin's forum instead or taking lessons from other top DPs?

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1 hour ago, Andrew Reid said:

50K ad guys

I couldn't work out whether he meant that he himself was paying an ad guy who was useless or it was a useless ad guy who he was being contacted by ?

1 hour ago, Andrew Reid said:

Why aren't we on Roger Deakin's forum instead or taking lessons from other top DPs?

He needs to up his shock face thumbnail game if he wants to be taken as a leading authority on anything.

Roger_deakins.thumb.jpg.82080bb55d11d50bccf8002d63023a31.jpg

In all seriousness though, one of the best things about trade shows was that you could sit down for an hour and watch a live presentation from a genuine expert in their craft.

Over the course of a three or four day show you could catch six or seven of them and come away with something lasting rather than just a hands on with the latest gear.

Although the hands on was obviously priceless in translating marketing into actuality and also gave you a chance to see quirky stuff that didn't come from behemoth manufacturers with a dominating prescence.

The demise of trade shows (even in pre-plague times) has benefited and been exploited by some vested interests that don't align with our own interests.

Sadly, I think the gear part of it is lost to the YouTube "method" now but I'd love to see in person exhibitions return in a form where you could go and watch a programme of live workshops from actual experts.

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On 2/4/2022 at 8:32 PM, Andrew Reid said:

Fuck VR as well.

What did VR ever do to you? It's like the last bastion of where tech still makes a huge difference in the end product. 

That being said, I agree with your sentiments about the abhorrence of the almost complete corporatization of human interaction. What a time to be alive. 

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1 hour ago, HurtinMinorKey said:

complete corporatization of human interaction. What a time to be alive. 

I gotta believe a sub culture dedicated to minimizing this reality has got to pop up sooner rather than later.  I ain't talking about creating some hippy utopia nonsense, but just a collective of people willing and able to dedicate their precious time to things that are actually that, precious... rather than the trivialities we currently allow to dominate.

I'm as guilty of it as anyone, but at least I'm TRYING to regulate my exposure to it.

I don't know we've always been awash with banal possibilities, but the sheer volume we're expected to endure; doesn't feel healthy both mentally and physically.

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15 hours ago, newfoundmass said:

Yeah, I'll see someone I know say something incredibly disrespectful to me because we disagree on politics, but then when I see them at the grocery store it's all smiles and asking how my family is doing, etc. When I tell them to fuck off (quite literally) they act shocked and confused.

I don't mean to paint all older folks with the same brush, but people that didn't use the internet much all the sudden became super connected once smart phones took over the market and immediately became the shittiest users on the internet. Now your 60 year old aunt spends most of her day shit posting and making casual racist comments on Facebook but wonders why things are now awkward with you on holidays. 

It can't be described better!

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17 hours ago, Robert Collins said:

Somehow I think the logic is back to front here. I have always felt comfortable telling my friends that 'I think they are talking absolute garbage' when I think they are. It would shock me if I subsequently met them in a 'grocery store' (full stop.) But if I did and I enquired about their family, I would be pretty surprised if they told me to 'fuck off'.

 

Knowing someone and being friends with someone are two completely different things. But if you run into someone you know at the grocery store, or somewhere else, it's pretty common to be friendly, say hello and ask how their family is doing even if you're not particularly close to the person. It's just how things are in small towns like mine where you've known these people your entire life. It doesn't stop some of them from being absolutely awful on social media, saying something disrespectful and then being friendly to you like nothing happened when you see them out and about in town. These people think they can behave a certain way online without repercussions. It's awful. Telling them to fuck off is being too kind for a lot of people's behavior online. 

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10 hours ago, Andrew Reid said:

The social media abuse is one thing but I'd like to bring this topic back to what Canon Rumors guy says in his actual tweets above.

I am interested to hear all your opinions on this more so than anything else.

50K ad guys

CR guy falling out with YouTubers

Gannon at DPReview (who writes all the clickbait on the news feed)

Industry is turning into a cess pit and it isn't much fun to be involved in it.

Unless the audience and consumers turn away from this and stop watching, stop clicking, stop endorsing, the problem of cronyism is going to get worse.

Why aren't we on Roger Deakin's forum instead or taking lessons from other top DPs?

The sad reality is none of this is shocking, and could be seen coming for years. That most YouTubers and reviewers are enthusiasts at heart and never intended to be impartial, they were easy pickings for these brands. It's almost comical how little it costs to do, too. 

Before to market your product you'd have to spend millions to advertise. Now all you have to do is email a 100 YouTubers, send them free stuff, and then watch them shill the products. The real brilliance is all the other YouTubers that then will follow their lead without even getting the products for free because 1. They want those hits, too. 2. They too want to get the attention of these companies and get free stuff, so they too shill in hopes of one day getting one of those emails. And all these companies had to do was pay for postage and the production cost of whatever product they're sending. Even when they were flying people out to exotic locations for camera announcements, it was a drop in the bucket compared to what they used to have to spend. 

These companies will continue to try and co-opt anyone they can. All we can do is hope that those that have ethics will continue to do things the right way. 

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7 hours ago, HurtinMinorKey said:

What did VR ever do to you? It's like the last bastion of where tech still makes a huge difference in the end product.

Facebook's vision with the tech that started with Oculus is to virtualise our everyday lives so we do nothing but sit at home with a bucket on our head watching ads.

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8 hours ago, BTM_Pix said:

In all seriousness though, one of the best things about trade shows was that you could sit down for an hour and watch a live presentation from a genuine expert in their craft.

Over the course of a three or four day show you could catch six or seven of them and come away with something lasting rather than just a hands on with the latest gear.

Although the hands on was obviously priceless in translating marketing into actuality and also gave you a chance to see quirky stuff that didn't come from behemoth manufacturers with a dominating prescence.

The demise of trade shows (even in pre-plague times) has benefited and been exploited by some vested interests that don't align with our own interests.

Sadly, I think the gear part of it is lost to the YouTube "method" now but I'd love to see in person exhibitions return in a form where you could go and watch a programme of live workshops from actual experts.

Indeed real life is much missed!

Social media has brought along a degenerate culture to the industry.

It's a bit like if Associated Press put out a public tender to the camera companies but it only mentions specific Sony specs because a deal was stitched up behind closed doors earlier.

Meritocracy is under serious threat if this continues.

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