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Andrew Reid

1D X III vs EOS R5 and R6

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Canon's renaissance in video has come at a time when rather than being frozen over, hell has come to planet Earth in the form of 2020. Only a year as perverted and warped as this could bring not one, not two but three Canon hybrid cameras. Which one should you consider adding to your filmmaking life (indeed what's left of it)?

New blog post:

https://www.eoshd.com/news/canon-1d-x-iii-eos-r5-eos-r6-which-one-will-be-best-for-cine/

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EOSHD Pro Color for Sony cameras EOSHD Pro LOG for Sony CamerasEOSHD C-LOG and Film Profiles for All Canon DSLRs

They're probably going to be good cameras. As most Canon cameras are. My main issue with the new models are the massive file sizes and the lack of clog 2 or 3. One thing is 1080p raw. Great. Manageable. 4k or higher in raw format is great for spending a small fortune on cards and drives. 

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The file sizes are only massive in RAW

Take a look at the range of bitrates below for 1D X III.

We don't yet know if the EOS R5 will have same codec options as 1D X III.

1d-x-mark-iii-codec-10bit-h265.jpg

Also forgot there is a Movie IS mode with 10% crop on 1DX III.

Handy.

 

canon-1d-x-mark-iii-RAW-specs.jpg

 

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Well 1tb for a roughly 70 minutes of 5.5k 25p raw... No thank you. The 10 bit seems like a good enough file for my needs. But such a pain to edit h. 265. It's too bad that prores isn't readily available on more cameras. 

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27 minutes ago, Andrew Reid said:

I'd rather have 5K 60p RAW than 8K 30p RAW.

Yup 5k 12bit Raw is dream cometrue . @Andrew Reid hows does grading 12bit files like? compared to Fp 8bit? much differents 

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14 minutes ago, FranciscoB said:

Well 1tb for a roughly 70 minutes of 5.5k 25p raw... No thank you. The 10 bit seems like a good enough file for my needs. But such a pain to edit h. 265. It's too bad that prores isn't readily available on more cameras. 

70 minutes is a lot for certain filming. No, it is nothing for interviews or a stage event... but why you need RAW for those anyway?

RAW is an art form for special creative occasions :)

And you can always convert it, compress it, or even throw it away afterwards.

17 minutes on a 256GB CFexpress card is £200. Yes, very few minutes, very high cost of media so it's never meant to be an everyday thing.

However for a really special shoot, it's worth it.

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7 minutes ago, Vision said:

Yup 5k 12bit Raw is dream cometrue . @Andrew Reid hows does grading 12bit files like? compared to Fp 8bit? much differents 

The Fp 8bit is actually really good and it does 10bit or 12bit to SSD.

However you sacrifice dynamic range in 8bit, less shadow retrieval before the breakup of the image begins in the deep blacks.

The look of 5D Mark III Magic Lantern 12bit 3.5K RAW was always very special to me. Canon colour science and sensor technology is hard to beat. Nice to have it in official form now, although a lot more expensive and far less democratic.

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Mentioned it in the other post but I think there's a good chance they'll offer cropped modes for 4k60 or 120. Nobody likes a crop but it's got several advantages over pixel binning or line skipping. Even if it is skipped/binned though, it's still 4k/120 compared to something like the S1H which also uses binning/skipping but only does it at 1080p. Regarding the 4k/30 RAW, how practical/useful is around 15 minutes of footage on a £700 CF Express card? It's got that USB port so maybe they'll also offer recording that way?

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CFexpress is a very new format. Not the same as XQD, so at first prices are going to be high, due to limited quantities shipping.

There are some exceptions.

I got a Delkin CFexpress 256GB card for £170 yesterday.

Typical Sandisk prices for same thing are around £400 on Amazon. Curiously the CFexpress 512GB cards are £500 which is around £100 per 100GB - much more reasonable than buying multiple 64GB cards at £170.

CFexpress is PCI Express Nvme NAND memory like a PC Nvme M.2 SSD drive. So the memory chips are very cheap for a PC, built in great quantities.

I expect similar progression to cheap and common availability with CFexpress once it moves out of its high-end niche.

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59 minutes ago, FranciscoB said:

Well 1tb for a roughly 70 minutes of 5.5k 25p raw... No thank you. 

Many years ago there was this thing called FILM.  It came in rolls that only lasted for MINUTES.  You paid to buy it and paid again to develop it.  It wasn't even REUSABLE.

Madness!!

But seriously, if you're having a hard time with RAW file sizes then RAW isn't for you.  In fact, RAW isn't for most of the people on this forum.  A blind test comparing RAW to Prores would pretty quickly show that compressed formats are good enough for almost everything.

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Yes, it isn't for me. When did I suggest otherwise? 

People overthink and overpraise raw format for video. 

For photography? Great. For video I think is overkill for the majority of us. Log and 10 bit 422 is a great compromise for quality and space. 

But anyway, to each his own. As I said before, no thank you. 

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If you want RAW and you're willing to pay 1DXmk3 prices, I think that RED Komodo may end that conversation. The RAW is flexible enough with compression strengths that you could probably use it even for data-limited projects.

Sure, it doesn't have continuous AF or IBIS, and maybe that would be a dealbreaker for some. I love the IBIS on my S1 and I pine for good AF.

But if you want the best codec and IQ in a real video camera at that price point from a brand that's respected, I mean damn. 6K REDCODE RAW or 4K prores from a slightly larger than S35 sensor with RF mount on a body that can go on my Ronin-S... the global shutter is a beautiful cherry on top!

Yes, the proof is in the pudding. But the dynamic range and IQ seems very promising.

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The only real point of contention I have with your article, Andrew, is that you just gave the "Best Autofocus" point to the 1DX Mk III without really going into why you feel that way. I mean, hasn't Canon confirmed the R5 is going to have the same version of DPAF as the 1DX Mk III... and that it'll be useable in all 8K and 4K modes, including RAW? 

That said, I don't disagree that right now I feel like 8K RAW is overkill for the vast majority of what work I do. I just got myself a new laptop and I'm excited for it, but I'm sure even what I got would struggle a fair bit with a codec that chunky. In practical terms, I'd be all for Canon making a 5.5K RAW at 60fps mirrorless camera that was the same price or a bit cheaper than the R5, as I'd get more mileage out of it. 

However I'm still leaning towards the R5 for now because of the RF mount, the IBIS, the cheaper price tag... and honestly even if I don't find myself using the 8K RAW right away, its 4K specs are still perfectly serviceable for what I do right now. Hell, if Canon wind up putting in 240 fps at 1080p too, that'll only sweeten the pot for me. The benefit of getting an R5, IMO at least, is that it seems to be one of those cameras that can act as a solid long term investment and use for a good 4-5 years before feeling particularly compelled to upgrade.

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If R6 is an FF X-T4 with dpaf, ibis, 4k60p raw or even 10bit clog internal at $2500, I think it's going to be a winner.

Big "if" though.. 

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The real question though is which one is going to be best for vlogging...

I don’t think I have ever owned a Canon camera but the 6 might be of interest in 2021 (as an alternative to a Fuji) but there are so many factors between now and then. The actual spec being just one thing.

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Wolfcrow tested out the 1dxIII extensively on a job and praises many things, but rolling shutter performance in 5,5k raw is not one of them. It’s really bad (which makes me cautious about both the R5 and R6) But the image is as expected gorgeous.

https://wolfcrow.com/canon-1d-x-mark-iii-real-world-review-for-video-and-cinematography/

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39 minutes ago, Simon Young said:

Wolfcrow tested out the 1dxIII extensively on a job and praises many things, but rolling shutter performance in 5,5k raw is not one of them. It’s really bad (which makes me cautious about both the R5 and R6) But the image is as expected gorgeous.

https://wolfcrow.com/canon-1d-x-mark-iii-real-world-review-for-video-and-cinematography/

Hmm no surprises there. Another point scored by Komodo and its global shutter

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