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Has Canon planned a Formidable Attack


sanveer

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1 hour ago, sanveer said:

Hopefully R5 doesn't cost a kidney. 

Since the specs are moving more into confirmed territory. I’m gonna say minimum $4,499 at launch.

The 4K 10-bit 4:2:2 w/ Clog in h264 with DPAF up to 120p sold it for me and has me definitely holding on to my money even if a GH6 comes (I’m a MFT fan).

I expect the RAW will have such a large bitrate it will be impractical with current CFExpress card prices and capacity.

Anyway, good news from Canon stepping up their game.

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It's $16,000! S1H arguably has the same image for $4k.

The C300 was a success because despite the underwhelming specs, the image was great and had a broadcast codec. This new model seems great as it still continues as documentary camera, with better Dr, a

Obviously Canon made improvements, they couldn't be as bad as they were. Just look at this quick test I made between my two camera bodies (Canon EOS R and Panasonic S1H). Same settings (except I had

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35 minutes ago, Elagabalus said:

Canon still has this camera up its sleeve. Last I checked, it will be revealed later in the year. 

Speculated to have the new RF mount but looking at the pic it could also be fixed lens? 

Screen-Shot-2019-09-21-at-11.40.43-AM.png

A XC10 with modular approach? Hopefully the lens is interchangeable.

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On 4/20/2020 at 3:49 AM, Kisaha said:

The Canon costs 20.956.000euros, the FX9 is 13.500, there are not even close, one would expect the camera that costs 1/3 more to offer some more, the question is who is paying the price difference, and if one cares, to do so.

Sony creates another instant classic that in time it will be the new FS7 and Canon will sell a few to rental houses.


When you posted this yesterday, I'd have mostly agreed with you!

"The FX9 will prove to be more popular than the C500mk2"

The C500mk2 is priced too high above the FX9, and the C500m2 won't be stealing many jobs away from the high end ARRI. 

This is the problem, you've got the likes of the FS7 which is "good enough" to get the typical run of the mill professional job done (corporate / reality tv / doco / etc) and you've got the premium high end. Anything in between is a tough spot to live. 

This is why the C500mk2 won't be a big smash hit, it is too much more expensive than the FX9. This factor might even prevent the FX9 from being a smash hit. Is better AF, FF, built in TC, etc in the FX9 enough to justify the higher cost of a FX9 over the cheapie FS7 which still "gets the job done"?

I'm skeptical. 

This isn't just a problem with cinema cameras, this problem of a weak middle ground inflicts a range of other products. For instance with audio wireless you have:
1) the entry level wireless which is "good enough" to just get the job done for videographers/cameramen/students, such as Sennheiser G4 / Sony UWP-D21 / Deity Connect
2) you have the high end premium gear used by audio professionals, Wisycom/Zaxcom/AudioLtd/Lectrosonics

What is there in between these two? The middle ground doesn't exist! If I want to buy good wireless that is cheaper than the latest cutting edge gear then basically my only option is to buy the cutting edge gear from the previous generation (a Lectro SMQV from ebay instead of a new Lectro SMDWB).



Of course, when discussing if FX9 will take the throne we need to also address the big elephant in the room which has arrived since yesterday:

Canon C300mk3. That's an even bigger threat to the FX9 taking the throne as the #1 cinema camera for low budget pro projects. 

FX9 vs C300mk3:
Identical price. (ok ok, FX9 is one dollar less!)
Identical power draw. (35.2W vs 31W. Low power draw matters, the 63W of the C500mk2 is not a good thing when you're a solo operator)
C300mk3 has better DR
Canon has internal raw, vs Sony's external raw (need's an expensive external extension too!)
EIS with the Canon is done internally for a smooth handover to post, vs done in post for the FX9. That's a point for Canon. 
I'll give the nod slightly to Sony for having the more versatile mount, but this is no longer the massive edge Sony used to have over Canon. Where with Canon in the past you were stuck with either EF or PL once you bought it (or sometimes, interchangeable but only by Canon themselves), but Canon now offers a user swappable mount between EF or PL (plus a bonus: or positive locking EF mount!! Giving you three options). 
NDs, Sony gets the nod again with the eNDs.
AF, the FX9 has greatly improved autofocus for a Sony, but probably Canon might get the nod here. 
Likewise FX9 has greatly improved color science, but perhaps Canon might have the edge for the win here too?

Is FF alone enough to make the FX9 win over the C300mk3? I don't think so, the C300mk2 is in with a serious shot to make a claim for the #1 spot for cinema camera on low budget productions. 

In a way, this coronavirus crisis is a blessing in disguise for Canon's C300mk3

A big factor in the failure for the C300mk2 to live up to the massive smash hit success of the C300mk1 was that the C300mk2 was released too late to the market. As by that point in time the Sony FS7 had already gained a grip on the market. (of course the C300mk2's high launch price and lack of 4K 60fps didn't help! But if the C300mk2 had came out a few months before the FS7 then the C300mk2 might have prevented the FS7 from becoming a runaway success)

Is the C300mk3 going to suffer the same fate again in being too late to the game? Perhaps not, FX9 has had a slow roll out due to needing a few firmware updates. 

But additionally almost nobody has been making big camera purchases in recent weeks, and likely most will be holding off on a new camera purchase over the next few months while the dust of this economic crisis settles. Sony won't be selling too many more bodies between now and July 2020 when the C300mk3 is meant to ship. 

Normally a company having most of a year as a head start over their competition gives them enough of a good solid lead that it is an uphill battle for anybody to overcome, but not this time. As much of that time has been lost in limbo while we're trapped by the impacts of the coronavirus. Canon C300mk3 has a real shot at this.

 

  

On 4/20/2020 at 5:15 AM, zerocool22 said:

There is a press conference of Canon on 20 april, and one of Sony on the 30th(they were scheduled at the same time, but sony postponed theirs when they found out Canon was at the same time). I wonder why sony does that, is it because they will include extra features to compete with canon if the canon news is better? 


Sony knows in the current economic climate very few people are rushing out to pre order new cameras. They won't be losing many sales by delaying their news by a few days. 

And if Sony's announcement makes less of a splash than Canon's, perhaps it is only a "big" FX9 & VENICE firmware update they're announcing, at least that news won't be drowned out by Canon's announcement and Sony will get an entire news cycle devoted just to Sony.

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10 hours ago, Rinad Amir said:

My guess 8k euro .Since i paid 6.7 for 1dx and thats halve of spec knowing  Canon

Will be around 4k euro. Certainly will be some time limitations on 8k30 / 4k120 video. Guess we are lucky if 5 to 10 min are possible in 8k with such a small body (in comparison to 1dxiii).

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1 hour ago, Avenger 2.0 said:

Will be around 4k euro. Certainly will be some time limitations on 8k30 / 4k120 video. Guess we are lucky if 5 to 10 min are possible in 8k with such a small body (in comparison to 1dxiii).

You reckon the usual 30min? Yah id love if the price point stays around 4k teritory but its hard to imagine from experiance i mean its basiclly  cinema baby which is three times cheaper than c500 mii.

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Pretty exciting. I feel like the Canon R5 is actually the first really solid attempt at going for broke with a camera that I've seen in a long time. Maybe since the GH5? Even something like the GH5 was just completely lacking in auto focus which pretty much every other brand was doing better at. 

The Pocket 4k was a pretty big game changer but more so because it was so cheap vs its features(lack luster sensor,  no AF, weird body). Pocket 6k should have had a better body. The Panasonic S1 and S1H felt bold but at the same time they felt a little under featured. I feel like internal RAW should just be a thing now, at least at the $4000+ price point.

Same goes for the FX9. Its a super practical camera to use (underrated or maybe just under realized E-ND's) but it also feels lacking. Why in the world can't it do internal RAW? Blackmagic can do it so why not sony???

The C300 Mk3 also seems really damn good. Internal RAW, newer DGO higher dynamic range capabilities, 4K 120P and 2k 180fps. I guess the 4K S35 sensor seems a bit dated now but the specs are there, the AF is there, internal ND's and all that jazz. Its just going to be a workhorse for those who don't need higher resolutions(which is a hell of a lot of people). 

I wish the FX6 could go head to head with the C300 MK3, but its looking pretty lackluster. 

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What prompted Canon to do a completely revelatory camera, in terms of the technology and completely u-turn on their previous strategy of holding back on DSLR video.

Was it seeing so many sales go to Sony?

Was it the need to ensure a new mirrorless lens mount succeeds on the market vs Nikon, Fuji, Panasonic & Sony?

Were they waiting for new manufacturing capabilities to be ready, new factories, to be able to produce such fast sensors and processors?

Did they realise cropped 4K on the EOS R was a bad business strategy?

I'd love to be a fly on the wall at Canon.

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41 minutes ago, Andrew Reid said:

What prompted Canon to do a completely revelatory camera, in terms of the technology and completely u-turn on their previous strategy of holding back on DSLR video.

Was it seeing so many sales go to Sony?

Was it the need to ensure a new mirrorless lens mount succeeds on the market vs Nikon, Fuji, Panasonic & Sony?

Were they waiting for new manufacturing capabilities to be ready, new factories, to be able to produce such fast sensors and processors?

Did they realise cropped 4K on the EOS R was a bad business strategy?

I'd love to be a fly on the wall at Canon.

I've grown weary over the past couple of years of every speculated camera from any Japanese manufacturer being tied in to the Olympics to bolster the rumour's credibility but I think in Canon's case this might actually be more likely than the others.

They are one of the Gold level sponsorship partners for Tokyo2020 (basically the de-facto photography partner) so I'm guessing they didn't want to take any chances of someone undermining that by having better specced cameras.

 

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51 minutes ago, Andrew Reid said:

Was it seeing so many sales go to Sony?

Was it the need to ensure a new mirrorless lens mount succeeds on the market vs Nikon, Fuji, Panasonic & Sony?

These two. Sony was reaching a sort of critical mass with professionals that needed more video capability.

So Canon seems to be swinging for the fences to win them back.

R5 ~$4k, RF glass easily ~7.5K (holy trinity set), $1K in bits and bobs (EF-RF adapter, etc...)

Thats $12.5K for a straight RF investment. Of course it is lower for people coming with EF glass, but eventually they will want some of that RF goodness. That’s $8K in lens lock-in (the ultimate form of lock-in for a brand).

DPAF, 4K120p, and 10-bit clog are a tasty combo for many people, even Sony brand loyalists.

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47 minutes ago, Andrew Reid said:

What prompted Canon to do a completely revelatory camera, in terms of the technology and completely u-turn on their previous strategy of holding back on DSLR video.

Was it seeing so many sales go to Sony?

Was it the need to ensure a new mirrorless lens mount succeeds on the market vs Nikon, Fuji, Panasonic & Sony?

Were they waiting for new manufacturing capabilities to be ready, new factories, to be able to produce such fast sensors and processors?

Did they realise cropped 4K on the EOS R was a bad business strategy?

I'd love to be a fly on the wall at Canon.

I recall previous conversations where people talked about the legacy architecture that Canon had in place being a bottleneck, do you think that perhaps it took them a while to wake up and smell the 8K, but then took a long time after that to work out alternatives to their architecture issues?

I don't know how long their product development cycles would be, but I've heard in other industries that although the product cycle might be new models annually, that the complete end-to-end can be 4 or 5 years, so they essentially have 4 or 5 models in development simultaneously, so it might have been a few years between them deciding to bite the bullet and go for a new architecture and that new product seeing the light of day.

Not sure if you've gleaned anything in your conversations with reps and vendors?

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52 minutes ago, Andrew Reid said:

What prompted Canon to do a completely revelatory camera, in terms of the technology and completely u-turn on their previous strategy of holding back on DSLR video.

Was it seeing so many sales go to Sony?

Was it the need to ensure a new mirrorless lens mount succeeds on the market vs Nikon, Fuji, Panasonic & Sony?

Were they waiting for new manufacturing capabilities to be ready, new factories, to be able to produce such fast sensors and processors?

Did they realise cropped 4K on the EOS R was a bad business strategy?

I'd love to be a fly on the wall at Canon.

Probably a combination of all the above.

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21 minutes ago, Django said:

Also let's not forget the FF mirrorless market has become crowded: Canon, Sony, Nikon, Panasonic, Sigma, Leica..

Seems Canon wanted to leapfrog everyone in time for the Tokyo Olympics.

 

Makes sense. We'll see if the R5 is everything it looks like it could be. Wondering how bad the rolling shutter/jello will be.

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8 minutes ago, thebrothersthre3 said:

Makes sense. We'll see if the R5 is everything it looks like it could be. Wondering how bad the rolling shutter/jello will be.

 

27 minutes ago, Django said:

Also let's not forget the FF mirrorless market has become crowded: Canon, Sony, Nikon, Panasonic, Sigma, Leica..

Seems Canon wanted to leapfrog everyone in time for the Tokyo Olympics.

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Prolly, but they are a year ahead now, as the olympics have moved to 2021.

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