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Andrew Reid

Panasonic S1 V-LOG -- New image quality king of the hill

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2 hours ago, Cliff Totten said:

S1 super35 looks gorgeous in VLog.

It's a 1:1 4k readout and deBayer so you don't get the 6k oversample but the dynamic range is off the charts and the low light noise is still superb. I feel the S1 Super35 mode STILL matches or beats other Super35 cameras. (EVA-1 and FS7, Canon C series and Ursa)

The S1 sensor is a really.....really,...I mean, REALLY damn good sensor. (This wasn't fully known until they gave us VLog last week....now it's true DR is unlocked and on display for all to see)

Have you tried it with the Sigma apsc lenses like the 18-35 1.8?

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EOSHD Pro Color for Sony cameras EOSHD Pro LOG for Sony CamerasEOSHD C-LOG and Film Profiles for All Canon DSLRs
1 minute ago, webrunner5 said:

I never said they can't ever do it. I said they are going to pay out the ass to use it. Just like they will pay Apple to use it. Jesus. You haven't figured out shit.

You said Nikon and Atomos would pay out the ASS.   Nikon and Canon and Sony don't have to pay because "Atomos DID have a patent agreement with ProResRAW"

So you were wrong again.  Nikon wouldn't have to pay because Atomos is covering that part.  

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44 minutes ago, webrunner5 said:

I never said they can't ever do it. I said they, you are going to pay out the ass to use it. Just like they will pay Apple to use it. Jesus. You haven't figured out shit. The whole damn world is ALL about the money. It's the reason you go to work. You do work don't you?? It's the reason you paid out the ass for your Z6 when you first bought it. Pretty bad investment right now isn't it. Red and Apple loves you. And Atomos will love your money when you Have to buy a Recorder to use Raw on your Z6. It will probably takes a 120 Dollar HDMI cable from Atomos to even use it to boot. They all have you by the Short Hairs. But you have it all figured out. Yeah right.

No I paid $1,950 for my Z6 with 50mm 1.8 and 64g XQD card.  And I sold my A6500 to help pay for the Z6.

So my Nikon Z6 was actually a good investment on my part. It's already paid for itself X 7 over. 

If I buy the Atomos Ninja for it to record 12 bit ProRes RAW from the Z6, then I pay them one time. And that's it. The Ninja has other features and looks like a great product. So how much am I paying Atomos for that Ninja? 

That  Atomos HDMI cable is $30 on Amazon.

 

 

 

 

5 minutes ago, webrunner5 said:

Oh trust me EVERYONE pays. It's all about the money. On ignore, I figured it out. Have a nice week.

Thanks @webrunner5

You needed to cus at me and throw out insults and the minute you're proven wrong you run and hide.  That's not very noble of you my friend. 

To everyone else I'm sorry for engaging the same was with runner5.  

Thanks to everyone for providing information in this thread.  Upward and Onward.

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7 hours ago, Thpriest said:

Have you tried it with the Sigma apsc lenses like the 18-35 1.8?

HA!,...its funny that you say that as I'm holding my S1 with the MC21 adapter and the Sigma 18-35 f1.8 right now as I type this. It REALLY looks great. I can tell you also that ramping iris open and close is pretty smooth too. AF in video is very accurate with "AF-ON" one push AF.

Don't worry about Super35 mode. It looks just as beautiful as FF in terms of VLog, dynamic range and signal to noise ratio.

This image sensor in VLog is blowing my mind.

CT

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7 hours ago, webrunner5 said:

Well when you have just total untruths and lies I am not going to just let people Bull Crap people that really don't know what's happening. Nikon has done a disservice to the people that have bought this camera thinking it is all pie in the sky on this Raw thing. This Might happen, but when you paid what you have paid to hopefully get it they ought to be a heck of a lot more honest than they have like it or not.

Is it a bad camera no. But it will be a worse camera if this doesn't ever happen. And That might really happen.By the time it ever comes out their edge will be gone. Everyone else will have it. Typical Nikon in the last few years. Undeceive as heck. A ship adrift.

I will say no more on this subject. I respect your thoughts @PannySVHS. I will figure out some way as old as I am to put good old Skippy Peanut Butter on Ignore. 😁

 

Sorry but Nikon hasn't done a disservice to the people that bought the Z6 or Z7.  I posted info today from Atomos and in two different social media areas they said ProRes RAW is coming later this year.  This isn't just Nikon saying this but Atomos the company they teamed up with.  

I'll say it again this is from today and not 3 months ago. 

In todays market and You Tube speed of light blow back, if you give a date for an upgrade or release and you delay that delivery, the You Tube influencers will damage your company beyond repair. 

So please everyone don't listen to a pure Nikon hater as to when and what's coming next from Nikon or Panasonic.  In summary Atomos is the one paying the fees to RED for producing RAW video record on the Atomos. That's Atomos and exactly why people us their products. Nikon does not pay that fee and neither do other companies that are relying on external RAW recording. That really sums up why Atomos and Nikon and Sony's FS5 go external to record ProRes RAW.  

Here's one update from Atomos about teaming with Nikon's and delivering ProRes RAW.  

 

prores-atomos.jpg

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U

26 minutes ago, Skip77 said:

Sorry but Nikon hasn't done a disservice to the people that bought the Z6 or Z7.  I posted info today from Atomos and in two different social media areas they said ProRes RAW is coming later this year.  This isn't just Nikon saying this but Atomos the company they teamed up with.  

I'll say it again this is from today and not 3 months ago. 

In todays market and You Tube speed of light blow back, if you give a date for an upgrade or release and you delay that delivery, the You Tube influencers will damage your company beyond repair. 

So please everyone don't listen to a pure Nikon hater as to when and what's coming next from Nikon or Panasonic.  In summary Atomos is the one paying the fees to RED for producing RAW video record on the Atomos. That's Atomos and exactly why people us their products. Nikon does not pay that fee and neither do other companies that are relying on external RAW recording. That really sums up why Atomos and Nikon and Sony's FS5 go external to record ProRes RAW.  

Here's one update from Atomos about teaming with Nikon's and delivering ProRes RAW.  

 

prores-atomos.jpg

Yes, this is how it works. Atomos goes through the pain of getting pattent liscensing with RED so that "they" become the sole ProRes recorder with with compressed raw.  Any camera company only needs to create a standed raw  (not compressed) output using Atomos HDMI bus spec. (I was told that Atomos also utilizes the Gigabit Ethernet channel specification built into HDMI pinouts to use as a data buss for raw)

Anyway...Atomos did the patent work so I dont see Panny or Sigma or Nikon wanting to ever get involved in their own internal compressed raw...because Atomos took on that task for everybody.

BTW....Atomos told me that ProResRAW is NOT 100% owned by Apple. It is joint-owned by Apple and Atomos! That supprised me!

So,...Atomos ALSO has a say on how ProResRAW is liscensed in future hardware and software!

If Nikon, Sigma and Panny wants INTERNAL ProResRAW, they will need to go to Apple and Atomos together to get approved. (DJI did it)

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Did Atomos say how much better Nikon's ProRes RAW will be compared to there 10 bit external video?  And based on the conversations you had with them when do you see RAW hitting the Z6 and Z7? 

This update and what Atomos is doing is really going to set these cameras apart and draw a before and after line in the sand. 

Have you seen any Nikon RAW footage in person?

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I saw demo footage shot with the Z6 raw out to the Atomos V in ProResRAW. That was on display at NAB.

I also know that the S1 will also have raw over HDMI this year too. This was a high up Panny decision that went against some lower managers in Varicam and EVA1 that did not agree with the idea. 

 Unfortunately, Nikon dragged their feet too long. They had a chance to beat everybody by 6 + months on raw over HDMI. They had a window to be the first any only camera doing it.

Its looking like Panasonic will have theirs ready right when Nikon is ready. Sorry Nikon...missed opportunity. The big question is Sony. What will they do to answer Nikon, Panny and Sigma in the raw world?

Jeremy Young jokingly said at CES;

"If you want Canon to do something, get Nikon to do it first. If you want Sony to do something, get Panasonic to do it first"

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17 minutes ago, Cliff Totten said:

I saw demo footage shot with the Z6 raw out to the Atomos V in ProResRAW. That was on display at NAB.

I also know that the S1 will also have raw over HDMI this year too. This was a high up Panny decision that went against some lower managers in Varicam and EVA1 that did not agree with the idea. 

 Unfortunately, Nikon dragged their feet too long. They had a chance to beat everybody by 6 + months on raw over HDMI. They had a window to be the first any only camera doing it.

Its looking like Panasonic will have theirs ready right when Nikon is ready. Sorry Nikon...missed opportunity. The big question is Sony. What will they do to answer Nikon, Panny and Sigma in the raw world?

Jeremy Young jokingly said at CES;

"If you want Canon to do something, get Nikon to do it first. If you want Sony to do something, get Panasonic to do it first"

When do you think RAW will be released? 

Do you think Panny will give RAW to the S1 so soon with the S1H hitting the market?

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12 minutes ago, Cliff Totten said:

 Unfortunately, Nikon dragged their feet too long. They had a chance to beat everybody by 6 + months on raw over HDMI. They had a window to be the first any only camera doing it.

So did Panasonic, Sony, Olympus, Fuji and Canon. An Atomos rep told me years ago when demonstrating the Shogun that they could do Raw to prores and later raw to raw over HDMI. He told me all the camera manufacturers where informed and they just needed to say "go".

So I naturally assumed the A7sii, which wasn't announced at the time, would be first. But no, they all decided to drag their feet for a couple of years first.

Thank god for black magic.

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My VLOG key arrived few days ago and been playing around with the exposure. What do you set your zebras up to? I've been using the waveform to expose and I'm still clipping highlights and cant recover in post

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9 hours ago, Cliff Totten said:

HA!,...its funny that you say that as I'm holding my S1 with the MC21 adapter and the Sigma 18-35 f1.8 right now as I type this. It REALLY looks great. I can tell you also that ramping iris open and close is pretty smooth too. AF in video is very accurate with "AF-ON" one push AF.

Don't worry about Super35 mode. It looks just as beautiful as FF in terms of VLog, dynamic range and signal to noise ratio.

This image sensor in VLog is blowing my mind.

CT

Really glad to hear this impression re. Super35. I've been selling of a tone of un-/ under-used kit to streamline and fund this transition to the S1. The 18-35 almost went, but considering that 4k/60 is an APS-C crop, I decided to keep it to preserve the option.

Haven't grabbed an MC21 yet since I would only do it for this combo. Perhaps imminent. 

Willing to post a little footage? Some 4k/24 as well? Thanks.

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8 hours ago, Cliff Totten said:

I also know that the S1 will also have raw over HDMI this year too. This was a high up Panny decision that went against some lower managers in Varicam and EVA1 that did not agree with the idea.

This is interesting. I honestly wasn’t expecting the S1 to get raw given that could be a big selling point for a higher priced S1H. Also, wondered if they’d do it at all given the Varicam line.  

Then again, I think you said the S1H would be 6k raw right? So that would be full sensor instead of a crop which probably would entice some folks to upgrade for more money. 

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3 hours ago, Walter H said:

Really glad to hear this impression re. Super35. I've been selling of a tone of un-/ under-used kit to streamline and fund this transition to the S1. The 18-35 almost went, but considering that 4k/60 is an APS-C crop, I decided to keep it to preserve the option.

Haven't grabbed an MC21 yet since I would only do it for this combo. Perhaps imminent. 

Willing to post a little footage? Some 4k/24 as well? Thanks.

I'll shoot 30 seconds of FF VLog and Super35 VLog and upload the files straight from the card to my Google Drive this weekend.

There is, of course "some" difference is noise shape and pattern between FF and Super35. I did some lens cap noise tests between the two modes. The full frame mode has the advantage of 6k oversampling and the Super35 does not, it's of course a 1:1 4k readout. So, the ff scaled down noise is a finer grit. It's texture is very small. Whereas the Super35 is a larger, more common looking pattern but still truly excellent for a super35 camera. 

Panasonic amazingly gives us some noise reduction control! As you know, noise reduction is a DESTRUCTIVE process. Once it's applied to an image, it can never be removed in post. It's artifacts are burned in. I record entirely with noise reduction pulled back to "0".  I would MUCH rather surgically and more carefully remove noise in post than have any camera do it in real time for me. (for serious projects that I care about, not simple dumb stuff)

Again,...this S1 sensor is clean, clean clean. Even the tiny noise that it does produce is "pretty" looking.

I can't stress enough just how much it's dynamic range is in VLog.....wow!

CT

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I'm not that up to speed with video quality yet, but ... 

I haven't seen any comparisons between the S1 and the GH5 (both with 10-bit 4:2:2) - is that because the 10-bit upgrade for the S1 hasn't made it's way out to people yet or is it because the difference is so massive that it's not worth comparing them ? 

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3 hours ago, Patrick B. said:

This is interesting. I honestly wasn’t expecting the S1 to get raw given that could be a big selling point for a higher priced S1H. Also, wondered if they’d do it at all given the Varicam line.  

Then again, I think you said the S1H would be 6k raw right? So that would be full sensor instead of a crop which probably would entice some folks to upgrade for more money. 

I was only told specifically about the S1 getting 4k raw over HDMI. I was not told anything about that S1H. You can be certain that it will have everything the S1 has plus even more. I can only assume it will go beyond 4k and do the full sensor width at about 6k. (it will at least do 4k raw in super35)

I think we will find out both at IBC next month.  

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