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Andrew Reid

Panasonic S1 V-LOG -- New image quality king of the hill

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1 hour ago, Cliff Totten said:

Its funny. These BBC and Netflix requirements are somwhat silly. They want content at these specs but its impossible to even DELIVER that same content at even 1/4 of what they are asking for! I have been working at the same global media company for 23 years now. (Our social media policy strictly forbids me to say the name as I'm not an offical representative...I will just say that we are showing a ton of sharks on your TV right now)

We also have very high deliverable standards too from our vendors. The problem is that we broadcast in 1080 at 12-14 mbps. Cable affiliates take tha in and turn arround and recompress us to 8mbps for their cable systems and even lower if you have DirecTV. There goes all that high quality 4k standard! It's all WASTED on delivery!

Netflix gave the EVA1 clearance. The S1 matches the EVA1 in DR and completely destroys the EVA1 in signal to noise ratio! Aside for rolling shutter, the S1 is phenominal in VLog.

Sounds like a good gig.  

With Netflix the delivery is ONLINE and at high speed connections. So Netflix has higher delivery quality then the compression chain thru cable or direct tv.  This is a good thing.

I deliver my spots thru Extreme Reach to NBC and CBS the standards are high. 

DVD was always better then viewing the broadcast version and the same with BlueRay.  I think the traditional networks want content close to the source for a reason. 

Netflix and the networks now are broadcasting online and what's delivered will only get better.

1 hour ago, Andrew Reid said:

I-Frame capable...

So an ALL-I codec then?

If so, 240MBit is pushing it a bit.

10bit LOG in 150Mbit Long-GOP would probably look better.

Yes correct the 10bit codec on the S1 is same as EVA1 offers... However the EVA also has an ALL-I option I believe.

Netflix probably want hassle free editing and workflow, without computational overhead of a Long GOP codec.

Netflix wants timecode and proof it was shot to it's standard. This disqualifies many cameras.

1 hour ago, Andrew Reid said:

I-Frame capable...

So an ALL-I codec then?

If so, 240MBit is pushing it a bit.

10bit LOG in 150Mbit Long-GOP would probably look better.

Yes correct the 10bit codec on the S1 is same as EVA1 offers... However the EVA also has an ALL-I option I believe.

Netflix probably want hassle free editing and workflow, without computational overhead of a Long GOP codec.

Andrew you have or had the Z6. How does the S1 and Z6 compare? 

If the time becomes right and depending on 12 Bit Raw from Nikon, I will be getting the S1. 

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EOSHD Pro Color for Sony cameras EOSHD Pro LOG for Sony CamerasEOSHD C-LOG and Film Profiles for All Canon DSLRs

It's funny. Zillions of people are waiting and waiting for the A7S-III. Its like Charlie Brown in his field waiting for the Great Pumpkin!

The A7S-III is HERE and it's right under everybody'nose!

It has:

Full frame sensor (Very likely Sony Exmor)

6k full pixel readout to 4k scaling

14+ stops of dynamic range

10bit 4:2:2 4k with clean HDMI out

4k 30p 4:2:2 full frame no time limit internal recording.

4k 60p in "Hollywood" Cine super35 frame size.

Full size HDMI with 4k raw on the way.

Waveform scopes

Huge battery

Varicam color science....so delicious!!!

NO OVERHEATING!

Boom!.....that's 99% of what we wanted in the A7S-III....yet nobody is paying any attention to the S1 yet. (Only some people)  The S1 should be the industry talk of the town but too many people seem to be unaware of it still.

Sony is going to target the S1, not the S1H. I dont know if they can match the S1 using their tiny A7 bodies but lets see how far they go. 

S1H?....haha...Sony wont touch it! With 6k raw, Its going to be WAY over spec'd for Sony to even attempt to try. They dont have the bawls and XDCAM + Sony internal politics will never allow Alpha the chance.

 

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25 minutes ago, Cliff Totten said:

It's funny. Zillions of people are waiting and waiting for the A7S-III. Its like Charlie Brown in his field waiting for the Great Pumpkin!

The A7S-III is HERE and it's right under everybody'nose!

It has:

Full frame sensor (Very likely Sony Exmor)

6k full pixel readout to 4k scaling

14+ stops of dynamic range

10bit 4:2:2 4k with clean HDMI out

4k 30p 4:2:2 full frame no time limit internal recording.

4k 60p in "Hollywood" Cine super35 frame size.

Full size HDMI with 4k raw on the way.

Waveform scopes

Huge battery

Varicam color science....so delicious!!!

NO OVERHEATING!

Boom!.....that's 99% of what we wanted in the A7S-III....yet nobody is paying any attention to the S1 yet. (Only some people)  The S1 should be the industry talk of the town but too many people seem to be unaware of it still.

Sony is going to target the S1, not the S1H. I dont know if they can match the S1 using their tiny A7 bodies but lets see how far they go. 

S1H?....haha...Sony wont touch it! With 6k raw, Its going to be WAY over spec'd for Sony to even attempt to try. They dont have the bawls and XDCAM + Sony internal politics will never allow Alpha the chance.

 

Panasonic doesn't have the You Tube influencers to make a splash yet.  It's all shifting though and Andrew is doping his part. 

You Tube reviewers need to do a deep dive and show what the S1can do against the RED or Arri. Cine industry takes a while to catch up. 

When the S1 and S1H are used in higher profile products the truth will come out. People are wait to make the move to Panasonic with the S1 or S1H.  How can you buy the S1 when you don't know what the S1H gives you. 

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It is pretty crazy to see Youtube and reviewers freak out when Sony releases any product (and Canon to a much smaller degree), even when Panasonic is releasing way more professional, capable tools with the most important attributes: - best image quality - best audio interface and audio quality - best ergonomics and general usability - best bit-depth, frame rates, etc - best IBIS in the business by far.

Yet, it seems everyone just keeps harping on the AF - which, with native glass, is still pretty darn good. But which I almost never use. And if I use a gimbal, I have it connected to a small focus control motor, which are very cheap with the Ronin-S or Ronin-SC or really anything else.

Hopefully people take notice soon. 

I am starting to wonder if Youtube reviewers are paid... definitely get a lot of free stuff for their "opinion" 

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There is one huge difference between Sony and Panasonic, lenses.

That Sigma is going to release their lenses is not enough. They need to have already done it before people will even start to care. There is a used S1 + kitzoom that's been sitting a few weeks on a shelf in a camera store in Stockholm at a very reasonable price. Every time I see it I go, "hmm maybe I should buy it". But then I remember it will mostly sit on my shelf, waiting for lenses.

2 hours ago, currensheldon said:

I am starting to wonder if Youtube reviewers are paid... definitely get a lot of free stuff for their "opinion" 

If you find out that they do, please let me know so I can get some free cameras :)

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It's the same everywhere though, unfortunately. With the car scene as well.

There's a new car, there's a whole press event where people get flown out and wine and dined (literally... 5 star hotels, Michellin star restaurants). They get an exclusive first look and will have to sign an NDA. When it ends they're free to post their thoughts, images and other content (possibly after approval).

Thing is... if you work for a car magazine, you don't want to be the only one without content. You can't wait until the car is for sale and can be driven by anyone. You want to be on top of the coverage and getting the content out when it matters. That's only possible by attending these press events... and they're invite only obviously. So... you bet your ass off the general story will be spun in a positive direction. Selective journalism for the sake of actuality, if you will. You don't have to fake liking it (this is where I do have to blame some YouTubers! They get all 'wow John, it's amazing, but wait there's more!', of course car journalists and magazines don't care which car you buy... however: a YouTuber is getting that pre-order affiliate moniez). You can be selective about what you leave out that you don't like. Usually all 'first look' or 'initial hands-on' videos are an objective look at things, rather just giving you the hard facts and information than opinions (which I can live with). This keeps the manufacturer happy and secures your spot at the table for future launches, whilst not completely selling one's soul. Usually in follow-up videos they're more likely to put in some critique (though less likely with some YouTubers, because Canon Canada is kitting them out for free).

It's perhaps not just, but it is what it is. That's the game. You can decide not to play, but hey, what good will that really do?

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10 hours ago, Cliff Totten said:

It's funny. Zillions of people are waiting and waiting for the A7S-III. Its like Charlie Brown in his field waiting for the Great Pumpkin!

The A7S-III is HERE and it's right under everybody'nose!

It has:

Full frame sensor (Very likely Sony Exmor)

6k full pixel readout to 4k scaling

14+ stops of dynamic range

10bit 4:2:2 4k with clean HDMI out

4k 30p 4:2:2 full frame no time limit internal recording.

4k 60p in "Hollywood" Cine super35 frame size.

Full size HDMI with 4k raw on the way.

Waveform scopes

Huge battery

Varicam color science....so delicious!!!

NO OVERHEATING!

Boom!.....that's 99% of what we wanted in the A7S-III....yet nobody is paying any attention to the S1 yet. (Only some people)  The S1 should be the industry talk of the town but too many people seem to be unaware of it still.

Sony is going to target the S1, not the S1H. I dont know if they can match the S1 using their tiny A7 bodies but lets see how far they go. 

S1H?....haha...Sony wont touch it! With 6k raw, Its going to be WAY over spec'd for Sony to even attempt to try. They dont have the bawls and XDCAM + Sony internal politics will never allow Alpha the chance.

 

Yeah Sony said A7S III will be better then expected, so hopefully compressed RAW or atleast through external recorder. 

Colour science wise, I guess the Sony Venice is the new king in sony land, and is also full frame vs varicam. So I would rather take the Venice colour science. 

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10 hours ago, currensheldon said:

It is pretty crazy to see Youtube and reviewers freak out when Sony releases any product (and Canon to a much smaller degree), even when Panasonic is releasing way more professional, capable tools with the most important attributes: - best image quality - best audio interface and audio quality - best ergonomics and general usability - best bit-depth, frame rates, etc - best IBIS in the business by far.

Yet, it seems everyone just keeps harping on the AF - which, with native glass, is still pretty darn good. But which I almost never use. And if I use a gimbal, I have it connected to a small focus control motor, which are very cheap with the Ronin-S or Ronin-SC or really anything else.

Hopefully people take notice soon. 

I am starting to wonder if Youtube reviewers are paid... definitely get a lot of free stuff for their "opinion" 

It is but at the same time most of it comes from a vlogging perspective, which Sony and Canon are ultimately better for.

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7 hours ago, Mattias Burling said:

There is one huge difference between Sony and Panasonic, lenses.

That Sigma is going to release their lenses is not enough. They need to have already done it before people will even start to care. There is a used S1 + kitzoom that's been sitting a few weeks on a shelf in a camera store in Stockholm at a very reasonable price. Every time I see it I go, "hmm maybe I should buy it". But then I remember it will mostly sit on my shelf, waiting for lenses.

If you find out that they do, please let me know so I can get some free cameras :)

Yes that's true. I'm heavily anticipating some more lenses. Granted, with manual focus video (which is what I mostly do), I don't mind using the Sigma adapter + EF lenses. 

The three new Sigma lenses that weren't on the roadmap was a pleasant surprise, but for photography/AF, really looking forward to the release of a 24-70mm f2.8 and some reasonably sized primes in the f1.8-f2 range for gimbal and photos. The Sigma 45mm f2.8 looks great, but really wish it was f2 - my favorite f-stop for the best combo of image quality, light gathering, and size/weight - like the Zeiss Loxia or Batis or Sony or Nikon's f1.8 line. All of these modern lenses are so good, that I really don't need that extreme pro-level sharpness that the f1.4 and f1.2 MONSTER lenses are offering.

 

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Im good with f1.8 for the most part. The upside of extreme apertures like f1.2 for me is of course light but also being able to isolate subjects (the whole person, not just the eye) and still have the context in which they appear.

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For me the master of deep depth of field photography is the iPhone.

On a large sensor, the whole point for me is fast apertures and that subject separation even at a distance. Very three dimensional.

I wish somebody would do another Digital Bolex for when I want deep DOF cinema.

4 hours ago, zerocool22 said:

Yeah Sony said A7S III will be better then expected, so hopefully compressed RAW or atleast through external recorder. 

Colour science wise, I guess the Sony Venice is the new king in sony land, and is also full frame vs varicam. So I would rather take the Venice colour science. 

Maybe, maybe not. What if it's all just coolaid marketing from Sony... And the real reason for the no-show, is that the A7S II didn't sell all that well compared to the others and cannibalised some of their FS sales too. If that's the case maybe Sony are just not giving the project the priority it deserves, which is why it's taking so long.

Who knows...

Just have to wait and see.

It's very disappointing to have to wait 4 years though... Given the innovation showed by others (Fuji, Panasonic, Blackmagic, even Nikon.)

15 hours ago, Cliff Totten said:
  • Full frame sensor (Very likely Sony Exmor)
  • 6k full pixel readout to 4k scaling
  • 14+ stops of dynamic range
  • 10bit 4:2:2 4k with clean HDMI out
  • 4k 30p 4:2:2 full frame no time limit internal recording.
  • 4k 60p in "Hollywood" Cine super35 frame size.
  • Full size HDMI with 4k raw on the way.
  • Waveform scopes
  • Huge battery
  • Varicam color science....so delicious!!!
  • NO OVERHEATING!

It's a nice list isn't it... Reads like our unrealistic dream wish lists from just 2 years ago.

Here's how Sony can add to it:

Better AF
Built in ND

Erm. That's about it. I don't need 8K. I am not sure what else they will bring in the A7S III that will be more useful and practical than being able to focus and expose properly without hassle.

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1 hour ago, Andrew Reid said:

For me the master of deep depth of field photography is the iPhone.

On a large sensor, the whole point for me is fast apertures and that subject separation even at a distance. Very three dimensional.

I wish somebody would do another Digital Bolex for when I want deep DOF cinema.

Maybe, maybe not. What if it's all just coolaid marketing from Sony... And the real reason for the no-show, is that the A7S II didn't sell all that well compared to the others and cannibalised some of their FS sales too. If that's the case maybe Sony are just not giving the project the priority it deserves, which is why it's taking so long.

Who knows...

Just have to wait and see.

It's very disappointing to have to wait 4 years though... Given the innovation showed by others (Fuji, Panasonic, Blackmagic, even Nikon.)

It's a nice list isn't it... Reads like our unrealistic dream wish lists from just 2 years ago.

Here's how Sony can add to it:

Better AF
Built in ND

Erm. That's about it. I don't need 8K. I am not sure what else they will bring in the A7S III that will be more useful and practical than being able to focus and expose properly without hassle.

I don’t want 8k either. An internal nd and some form of 10 bit / raw would seal the deal. Unless it is $4000 and only records 8bit 4:2:0 internal and 10 bit 4:2:2 external. The gh4 was doing this in 2014 and can be had for $600

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6 minutes ago, Mako Sports said:

They wont do internal ND, there isn't space for it.

There was space in the fs5 which had the same lens mount and same flange distance. It is totally possible. 

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2 minutes ago, Shell64 said:

There was space in the fs5 which had the same lens mount and same flange distance. It is totally possible. 

no, I have an FS5 fam. With the FS5 the ND filter drops straight down vertically from the top and its a single stage filter. With the darkness being electronically controlled instead of the traditional 3 glass filters on a rotary wheel. An A7 body isn't tall enough to do this...

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18 minutes ago, Mmmbeats said:

Did you just say fam? 🤣 🤜

 

eta: Just seen your location, which makes it less likely you meant to say fam.  Pity.

nah a lot of us younger US boi's say fam. But I believe its mostly a UK thing iirc

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You have to think Panasonic or Nikon surprised Sony with video specs they produce with the Z6 and S1.

Nikon has more to 144 Mbps, 4K 30fps no crop, 12bit RAW external, better IBIS and upgrade in XQD card.

The S1 went even further internally. 

That's seems to make the most sense for the delay. Sony was caught off guard and they said the A7SIII would be better then everyone expected. 

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2 hours ago, Mako Sports said:

They wont do internal ND, there isn't space for it.

They found space in an E-mount camera for one already.

14 minutes ago, Skip77 said:

they said the A7SIII would be better then everyone expected. 

They may say that, but by "better" are they going to play a numbers game for no benefit to end user... pixel binned 8K nobody wants, bigger numbers on the box, all about specs... Or are they going to deliver a proper filmmaker's tool instead?

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