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Andrew Reid

Shooting with the Panasonic S1 in Barcelona

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02.JPG

Damn.....this is one HELL of a shoddy CODEC, frame rate and compressed audio $hit list! I pre-ordered this camera today but without the paid VLog and 10bit recording licenses,...this camera out of the box is of very little use to me...not like THIS! (HLG forced into 72mb/s h.265? only....compressed audio?..my God, this is bad)

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46 minutes ago, Cliff Totten said:

02.JPG

Damn.....this is one HELL of a shoddy CODEC, frame rate and compressed audio $hit list! I pre-ordered this camera today but without the paid VLog and 10bit recording licenses,...this camera out of the box is of very little use to me...not like THIS! (HLG forced into 72mb/s h.265? only....compressed audio?..my God, this is bad)

Also remember that the thermal management is BAD and camera will overheat after like 15 - 30 minutes in some modes.

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20 minutes ago, EspenB said:

Also remember that the thermal management is BAD and camera will overheat after like 15 - 30 minutes in some modes.

Haven't seen anyone done the thermal test, so will have to wait and see on that one, I guess A7SIII will have to be even bigger than S1 in size if they really need to have FF 4K60P

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1 hour ago, Cliff Totten said:

Damn.....this is one HELL of a shoddy CODEC, frame rate and compressed audio $hit list! I pre-ordered this camera today but without the paid VLog and 10bit recording licenses,...this camera out of the box is of very little use to me...not like THIS! (HLG forced into 72mb/s h.265? only....compressed audio?..my God, this is bad)

I agree. It's on par with Sony's codecs and bitrates with an added 4k60p mode. So really scraping the bottom of the bitrate barrel. It's not dealbreaker bad--I've never take issue with 80 mbps HEVC on the NX1--but it's not a thrilling list like the XT3 had. Let's wait and see what that paid firmware update brings, and for how much extra.

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1 hour ago, EspenB said:

Also remember that the thermal management is BAD and camera will overheat after like 15 - 30 minutes in some modes.

Whaaaat? How do you know this? Have you seen complaints of this yet? 15-30min???

Dunno about this one. Would love too se a video on that.

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9 hours ago, androidlad said:

Sorry but I'm gonna correct it every time I see this. 72Mbps HEVC is identical to 72Mbps H.264. That 50% bitrate saving marketing BS only applies to extremely compressed materials for streaming. For 4K it would be around 10-20Mbps for HEVC to show its strength.

The reason they offer HEVC is because BT.2100 HLG spec stipulates it.

I totally agree on calling out BS, so here goes - your post is BS.  

You're right that it's optimised for lower bitrates, but the advantages remain at higher ones.

This paper shows the objective (Peak Signal-to-Noise ratios) and subjective (blind test) comparison of the two: https://ieeexplore.ieee.org/stamp/stamp.jsp?tp=&arnumber=7254155

The graphs in the paper test bitrates on UHD 60Hz up to 38Mbps H.264 and 18Mbps HEVC (broadcast bitrates) and they conclude:

Quote

This shows that for 74 out of the 80 pairs of test points (or 92.5%) HEVC has a bit rate saving compared with AVC that is greater than or equal to 50%.

And what about higher bitrates?

This paper here shows the relatively quality of the two at higher bitrates - up to about 250Mbps: https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/b0bc/9342d1031250db0c7e2aabd2eeed51beef2e.pdf

Figure 3 shows that the 50% saving seems to extend up to around 6Mbps H264 (where the equivalent HEVC is about 3Mbps) but after that point there is a knee in the HEVC curve.
Figure 4 shows that the HEVC bitrate required to match the H264 goes above 50% up to the point where 40Mbps H264 requires about 30Mbps HEVC.
Figure 5 shows that the HEVC bitrate required to match the H264 goes back closer to 50% where 250Mbps H264 requires about 120Mbps HEVC, and for another clip 200Mbps H264 requires about 110Mbps HEVC.

Fact-checking the internet is fun, but it helps if you actually know the facts when you do it.

1 hour ago, Cliff Totten said:

02.JPG

Damn.....this is one HELL of a shoddy CODEC, frame rate and compressed audio $hit list! I pre-ordered this camera today but without the paid VLog and 10bit recording licenses,...this camera out of the box is of very little use to me...not like THIS! (HLG forced into 72mb/s h.265? only....compressed audio?..my God, this is bad)

Yeah, some higher bitrates would have been nice.

I came late to the GH5 party so I don't know what the original specs were or what people thought of them, but they did introduce the 400Mbps and 5K Open Gate modes in firmware updates, so maybe there will be updates for this too?  I guess time will tell.

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http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showthread.php?363348-Panasonic-S1-S1R-Official-Announcement-(Jan-31-Feb-1)&p=1986779990&viewfull=1#post1986779990

 

The following shooting modes will be enabled with that upgrade:

4:2:2 10-bit (internal)

MP4 4K 25/30p 150Mbps (4:2:2 10-bit, Long-GOP, LPCM)
MP4 4K 24p 150Mbps (4:2:2 10-bit, Long-GOP, LPCM)

MP4 FHD 50/60p 100Mbps (4:2:2 10-bit, Long-GOP, LPCM)
MP4 FHD 25/30p 100Mbps (4:2:2 10-bit, Long-GOP, LPCM)
MP4 FHD 24p 100Mbps (4:2:2 10-bit, Long-GOP, LPCM)

V-Log profile

4K 50/60p 4:2:2 10-bit HDMI output

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Kind of disappointed to be honest. The S1 seems to be a fine camera but it's the most expensive camera in this range with limited and expensive lens selection. There are no legacy lenses and nothing special on the specs sheet. The huge crop in 4k60 is a deal breaker for me.
I was expecting a FF GH5 and I just discovered a Z6/A7III +

Looking forward for the review.

 

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1 hour ago, kye said:

I totally agree on calling out BS, so here goes - your post is BS.  

You're right that it's optimised for lower bitrates, but the advantages remain at higher ones.

This paper shows the objective (Peak Signal-to-Noise ratios) and subjective (blind test) comparison of the two: https://ieeexplore.ieee.org/stamp/stamp.jsp?tp=&arnumber=7254155

The graphs in the paper test bitrates on UHD 60Hz up to 38Mbps H.264 and 18Mbps HEVC (broadcast bitrates) and they conclude:

And what about higher bitrates?

This paper here shows the relatively quality of the two at higher bitrates - up to about 250Mbps: https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/b0bc/9342d1031250db0c7e2aabd2eeed51beef2e.pdf

Figure 3 shows that the 50% saving seems to extend up to around 6Mbps H264 (where the equivalent HEVC is about 3Mbps) but after that point there is a knee in the HEVC curve.
Figure 4 shows that the HEVC bitrate required to match the H264 goes above 50% up to the point where 40Mbps H264 requires about 30Mbps HEVC.
Figure 5 shows that the HEVC bitrate required to match the H264 goes back closer to 50% where 250Mbps H264 requires about 120Mbps HEVC, and for another clip 200Mbps H264 requires about 110Mbps HEVC.

Fact-checking the internet is fun, but it helps if you actually know the facts when you do it.

Thanks for posting the links, it would be more sensational to post that BBC study's editorial title "H.265/HEVC vs H.264/AVC: 50% bit rate savings verified", yes but only at lower bitrate. This is exactly what I meant.

For "higher bitrate" tests in the second paper, is that really how you interpret the figures and the study itself? Then please explain how HEVC manages to achieve ~33dB PSNR with a bitrate of 0?

 

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11 minutes ago, OliKMIA said:

Kind of disappointed to be honest. The S1 seems to be a fine camera but it's the most expensive camera in this range with limited and expensive lens selection. There are no legacy lenses and nothing special on the specs sheet. The huge crop in 4k60 is a deal breaker for me.
I was expecting a FF GH5 and I just discovered a Z6/A7III +

Looking forward for the review.

 

As long as those companies pay Sony to package their sensor features and capabilities, Sony will always be able to deliver more spec'd out products with CMOS sensors for cheaper.

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17 minutes ago, androidlad said:

Thanks for posting the links, it would be more sensational to post that BBC study's editorial title "H.265/HEVC vs H.264/AVC: 50% bit rate savings verified", yes but only at lower bitrate. This is exactly what I meant.

For "higher bitrate" tests in the second paper, is that really how you interpret the figures and the study itself? Then please explain how HEVC manages to achieve ~33dB PSNR with a bitrate of 0?

It would be more sensational, but I'll leave that to you, I'm more interested in facts.

In terms of how I interpret the data on those graphs, I do it by looking at the datapoints that I quoted.  If you're not sure how to read graphs properly then there are many good online courses from reputable university courses available.  

If you disagree with their methodology or results, then I look forward to reading your published and peer-reviewed paper on the subject.  Or actually making some kind of sensible criticism.  Zooming in to a low resolution graph and assessing the data point that's less than one pixel wide is just stupid.

I blocked you previously because of your disgusting personal attack on someone else here on this forum, but have been reading your comments because I thought that despite having basically no inter-personal skills (or no compassion) you had some technical knowledge to contribute.  But if you can't even read a graph properly, or more likely you're deliberately mis-reading it because you value being right more than the facts, then I'm not sure why anyone would trust anything you contribute.

5 minutes ago, thebrothersthre3 said:

It has 10bit 4k 60p which the GH5 lacks.

I looked for that mentioned above but couldn't find it.  Maybe I missed it?

4K60 10-bit with HLG would really be something if it could do it!

 

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IMO it is very interesting to see how Panasonic (or respectively any other) marketing team hardly works to think and rethink and find a space under the selling sun for all products in their gamma. Some sort of puzzle: what will they cripple here and there, what to loosely promise here and there, what to put in the upgrade roadmap. Big exercise of logic that grows to mini science under the pressure of competition. 

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Gonna be honest: this feels rushed and is terribly underwhelming. 

There's really nothing here that makes me want to "upgrade" from the GH5, and in fact I feel like it'd be a downgrade.

Maybe in 3-5 years, when there are more lenses, etc. but for now it's a hard pass. The pricing of everything is just way too much, too. 

 

The paid update, too, for extra video features really annoys me. I thought it was always shady to do with V-log but this takes it to another level. That's not the direction camera makers should be going towards. 

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5 hours ago, Lars Steenhoff said:

http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showthread.php?363348-Panasonic-S1-S1R-Official-Announcement-(Jan-31-Feb-1)&p=1986779990&viewfull=1#post1986779990

 

The following shooting modes will be enabled with that upgrade:

4:2:2 10-bit (internal)

MP4 4K 25/30p 150Mbps (4:2:2 10-bit, Long-GOP, LPCM)
MP4 4K 24p 150Mbps (4:2:2 10-bit, Long-GOP, LPCM)

MP4 FHD 50/60p 100Mbps (4:2:2 10-bit, Long-GOP, LPCM)
MP4 FHD 25/30p 100Mbps (4:2:2 10-bit, Long-GOP, LPCM)
MP4 FHD 24p 100Mbps (4:2:2 10-bit, Long-GOP, LPCM)

V-Log profile

4K 50/60p 4:2:2 10-bit HDMI output

Ha!....wow, this will make Atomos, very VERY happy! No 400mbps all-I. Wow.

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32 minutes ago, newfoundmass said:

The paid update, too, for extra video features really annoys me. I thought it was always shady to do with V-log but this takes it to another level. That's not the direction camera makers should be going towards. 

I am also guessing the payment for the VLog could be more than $99 on this one. I am guessing, it would be more in the $199-299 range. 

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