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Panasonic seems to be announcing something "BIG" on December 15

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36 minutes ago, Kisaha said:

So, what was the announcement then?

The announcement is that the GH5S has not been annnouced.

It’s looking like it will be better in lowlight, possibly have better DR and a couple of new frame rate options. 

It’s unconfirmed as to whether there will be an “Auto Hollywood Mode”, where any video you record will instantly look like Hollywood. ;)

 

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3 hours ago, Oliver Daniel said:

It’s unconfirmed as to whether there will be an “Auto Hollywood Mode”, where any video you record will instantly look like Hollywood. ;)

Boy that would be horrible. Let's hope not. Hollywood is nearly incapable of producing watchable content these days. 

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11 hours ago, Cliff Totten said:

Sensor "A" and Sensor "B"....Sensor "A" has 4micron photo well and "B" has an 8micron. Both take in 100 (low light) photons and both produce the same voltage from those 100 photons. 

Let's say 1,000 photons will fully saturate a 4micorn well. Those same 1,000 photons might only fill "half" of the 8micron photosite well. The two of them have the same 
"low light" ability when they only have the same number of few photons collected but they both produce very different voltages when the light is good or strong. The smaller one will top out fast while the larger can keep producing higher and higher voltages before it saturates. So dynamic range in bright light is a big difference. But when light is so "low" that non of the pixels saturate, they will both produce the same low light performance. 

Big question....If an 8micron photosite takes in 100 photons....what can TWO photosites that are 4microns each do with 50 photons and 50 photons they both collected? Can you bin or "add" those two voltage readings "together" to equal the same voltage collected from ONE 8micron photosite with 100 photons?

How does pixel binning and summing actually work? Can you "really" play with and manipulate the light collection and voltage reading math like this?

We are dealing with small solar panels here. In very low light situations, a Micro 4/3 surface area only has exposure to a certain number of photons and can only generate voltages based on that limited value. How you "slice and dice" and "allocate into buckets" that FIXED NUMBER of low light photons....doesn't change the amount of overall light you took in on that read cycle.

You are either just bunching them up or spreading them out......but the overall photon count number doesn't change in "low light"? 

This post sounds like some test question I had in College 50 years ago! Is there going to be a test?? :grin:

3 hours ago, Jonesy Jones said:

Boy that would be horrible. Let's hope not. Hollywood is nearly incapable of producing watchable content these days. 

About the only thing lately they are good at is releasing part 3 of some 10 year old comic book movie. :angry:

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3 hours ago, Jonesy Jones said:

Boy that would be horrible. Let's hope not. Hollywood is nearly incapable of producing watchable content these days. 

I’ve been so very lucky to have seen both Justice League and The Last Jedi recently. While the latter is far better, both suffer quite significantly from Auto Hollywood Mode. 🤢

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15 hours ago, mercer said:

@wolf33d the 7D Mark iii will be out in the spring and you can have 4K and DPAF and you’ll be happy. 

And supposedly CLog

Hell the 5D Mark IV’s 1080p is pretty clean up to 60p. 

Well Canon has amazing AF, amazing colors, amazing ergonomics but they have shit specs because of protecting their CINE line. Pisses me a lot but that's how it is. 
Plus, I would rather have a light mirrorless than heavy big DSLR.  

So for video it will be GH5s or A7SIII for me. 
Next year we will see first FF from Nikon and Canon. Will be interesting but I do not have high hopes. Will probably be limited to 4K30p and no great codecs and video features. 

 

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@wolf33d I highly doubt the GH5s will have PDAF. And honestly, is a GH5 that much smaller than a DSLR? I assume the 7D3 will have the 8bit 150mbps 4K from the C200. And I doubt any camera maker, other than Panasonic, will have 10bit for a little while. For most work, 10bit is unnecessary. So if good AF were important to me, I would choose a camera that has DPAF or PDAF over 10bit color.

Now I would love for the GH5s to have a ProRes or Raw option, but for the rumored price that seems unlikely as well. So far, everything I’ve seen from it looks stunning, so it will definitely make a lot of videographers very happy.

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On 12/16/2017 at 8:08 AM, PannySVHS said:

@webrunner5, Great writeup. An awesome read. I remember, when SVHS C was an entry into making cinema like interlaced images possible for nonprofessionals. Well, what we thought would be cinema like:) It´s a shame that a restarted into video with digital only two years ago. All this fun with fascinating tech I´ve been missing out on all those years. Do you remember the videotoaster from Newtech? I cam around one years ago in a TV station, built around an Amiga 4000. Kinda sad to see a fxxin ifon having zillion times more performance power than the hottest gfx computer money could back then buy. But so must have felt a lot of people when an electronic pocket calculator from the 80ies had more calculating power than computers from the early days, which were built with tubes and as large as a shopping mall:)

Seems like we used most of the switchers, faders, etc, from a company called Grassly??? We used Sony monitors and all that goes with that, Sony recording, playback  decks etc. God they cost a ton and weighed a ton! What cost crazy money then was these hydraulic pedestal studio tripods!! Man they were HUGE. Sort of like this one. And the one for sale there on ebay is a bargain  I think. Looks like brand new.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Matthews-H-6-Studio-Pedestal-Tripod-Dolly-hydraulic-Pneumatic-with-Head/401459961139?hash=item5d78e0dd33:g:HbgAAOSwax5Y0byS

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On 12/16/2017 at 4:15 PM, jonpais said:

If it’s got clean ISO 6400, and you shoot with a focal reducer, what else will those who dislike u/4/3 find to complain about?

 

...Contrast only AF ?

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Very bad marketing from Panasonic, not something they do.

As of the size/weight, something very important for me, when choosing a small camera.

Nikon D750 Dimensions (W x H x D)5.5 x 4.4 x 3.1" / 140.5 x 113.0 x 78.0 mm Weight1.650 lbs / 750 g

GH5 Dimensions:5.5 x 3.9 x 3.4 in. (139 x 98 x 87 mm) Weight:25.6 oz (725 g)

A7Riii Dimensions:5.0 x 3.8 x 2.9 in.(127 x 96 x 74 mm)Weight:23.2 oz (657 g)

Samsung NX1 Dimensions:5.5 x 4.0 x 2.6 in.(139 x 102 x 66 mm) Weight: 19.5 oz (550 g)

Canon 7DmkII Dimensions:5.9 x 4.4 x 3.1 in.(149 x 112 x 78 mm) Weight2.002 lbs / 910 g

My humble opinion is that NX1 nailed it for an APS-C pro mirrorless body, and Nikon for a full frame dSLR. The rest are even too big/heavy for their sensor (and native lenses), and others too small/light (yes, having a very small and light full frame camera isn't ergonomically right for bigger and heavier lenses).

GH5 has the smallest sensor, but is the heaviest mirrorless there is. D750, being a full frame dSLR, has almost the same volume as the GH5. Adding an adapter there, you add more weight and size, worst AF (if, at all), no native lenses and obviously aditional cost.

Canon needs to step up their game, fast. Who is going to buy the 7D in 2018? and even if the 7D mark III arrives in 2018, in no way will have the same codec as the C200, a camera that costs 3-4 times the 7DmkIII price. We all know how Canon plays the game. 

Canonikon have to realize mirrorless is the future (present and past, for most of us).

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This question is for anyone, but I am tagging @mercer and @Oliver Daniel since they have both brought it up numerous times recently.

What is dual ISO? Or what are you or others referring to when you say dual ISO? Because it could mean a couple things as far as I know.

The first meaning, that I've heard is when the camera shoots simultaneously at two different ISO's and later they are combined to create an image with higher DR. I heard somewhere that @Neumann Films actually used this sometime ago with Magic Lantern or whatever. Which would make him a good candidate to use the new GH5BS if dual ISO is in fact the new 'thing' and if that is the definition of dual ISO. But to my understanding it would not give better low light, though it would create higher DR. 

The second meaning of dual ISO that I am aware of is dual 'Native' ISO, and this is actually what Panasonic has a history of doing with both the Varicam and EVA1. It allows the user to choose a higher, or lower, ISO as it's cleanest widest latitude setting. So the new GH5 could have 2 native ISO's, say one at 400 and another at 2500, or whatever. This, to my knowledge, would do nothing for greater DR, though it would definitely help low light since a cleaner image could be had at higher ISO's. 

Honestly, I would think the latter would be the most likely feature because of Panasonics recent use of it. Luke has definitely given clues that this camera is better in low light, though we see no evidence of it "seeing in the dark" as some of the Sony's do. So this would fit right in line with the images we've been seeing. 

However, to my understanding, this would give no benefit to DR. One thing I've noticed is that all of the images we've seen from Luke are high DR scenes or 'lower' light scenes... all being very clean and detailed and from what I can see, definitely improved DR, which the current GH5 could benefit from. 

So maybe there is an improvement to DR with dual Native ISO, but I don't understand how. 

Someone more technical than I could really help. Thanks.

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28 minutes ago, Jonesy Jones said:

This question is for anyone, but I am tagging @mercer and @Oliver Daniel since they have both brought it up numerous times recently.

What is dual ISO? Or what are you or others referring to when you say dual ISO? Because it could mean a couple things as far as I know.

The first meaning, that I've heard is when the camera shoots simultaneously at two different ISO's and later they are combined to create an image with higher DR. I heard somewhere that @Neumann Films actually used this sometime ago with Magic Lantern or whatever. Which would make him a good candidate to use the new GH5BS if dual ISO is in fact the new 'thing' and if that is the definition of dual ISO. But to my understanding it would not give better low light, though it would create higher DR. 

The second meaning of dual ISO that I am aware of is dual 'Native' ISO, and this is actually what Panasonic has a history of doing with both the Varicam and EVA1. It allows the user to choose a higher, or lower, ISO as it's cleanest widest latitude setting. So the new GH5 could have 2 native ISO's, say one at 400 and another at 2500, or whatever. This, to my knowledge, would do nothing for greater DR, though it would definitely help low light since a cleaner image could be had at higher ISO's. 

Honestly, I would think the latter would be the most likely feature because of Panasonics recent use of it. Luke has definitely given clues that this camera is better in low light, though we see no evidence of it "seeing in the dark" as some of the Sony's do. So this would fit right in line with the images we've been seeing. 

However, to my understanding, this would give no benefit to DR. One thing I've noticed is that all of the images we've seen from Luke are high DR scenes or 'lower' light scenes... all being very clean and detailed and from what I can see, definitely improved DR, which the current GH5 could benefit from. 

So maybe there is an improvement to DR with dual Native ISO, but I don't understand how. 

Someone more technical than I could really help. Thanks.

I agree I don't think there is a DR gain either. Lack of noise which Could equate to being more DR is in actuality being able to see into the shadows and well even highlights would "Look" like more DR, but it really is just what was there to start with, only cleaner.

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There are ways to change the ADC in order to improve the performance at higher ISOs. 

I highly recommend reading this pdf: http://www.photonstophotos.net/Aptina/DR-Pix_WhitePaper.pdf

There is also a very informative thesis by Xiangli Li if you want to go in even more depth: http://cmosedu.com/jbaker/students/theses/MOSFET Modulated Dual Conversion Gain CMOS Image Sensors.pdf

For example, A7rII uses this patented dual conversion gain http://www.freepatentsonline.com/y2017/0148832.html to get a tiny bit better dynamic range at higher ISOs:

dynamicrange.png.5594e7e06116b45372d1b28a89799b71.png

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19 minutes ago, Don Kotlos said:

There are ways to change the ADC in order to improve the performance at higher ISOs. 

I highly recommend reading this pdf: http://www.photonstophotos.net/Aptina/DR-Pix_WhitePaper.pdf

There is also a very informative thesis by Xiangli Li if you want to go in even more depth: http://cmosedu.com/jbaker/students/theses/MOSFET Modulated Dual Conversion Gain CMOS Image Sensors.pdf

For example, A7rII uses this patented dual conversion gain http://www.freepatentsonline.com/y2017/0148832.html to get a tiny bit better dynamic range at higher ISOs:

dynamicrange.png.5594e7e06116b45372d1b28a89799b71.png

"The Varicam 35 has a unique feature that sets it apart from most cameras. The ability to have two native ISO settings. How can a camera have two base ISO ratings you ask? Basically there are two analog circuits right after each pixel before the gain amp, one each dedicated to 800 and 5000 ISO. This allows for two “native”, very clean settings. In one mode it has a native ISO of 800 and when you switch to another setting the camera clicks over to its other native ISO of 5000. This keeps the signal to noise ratio the same and allows for you to shoot remarkable clean images in low light conditions. The noise present at 5000 ISO is nearly identical to that at 800. It’s coming directly from the sensor, so it’s not simply a case of boosting the gain and erasing the noise. One of the reasons Panasonic has done this is to allow for high frame rate capture in lower ambient light."

"It’s coming directly from the sensor, so it’s not simply a case of boosting the gain and erasing the noise."  That statement separates it from what Sony is doing by using their ADC for a dual conversion gain .

I can only gather that the sensor in a Varicam 35, and the mini has dual pixels from what I have read sort of like Canon does, but uses them for the Dual ISO instead of DPAF like Canon does.

So in reality  Panasonic has two senors instead of the normal one. So each one is just for a different Native ISO.

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8 minutes ago, webrunner5 said:

I can only gather that the sensor in a Varicam 35, and the mini has dual pixels from what I have read sort of like Canon does, but uses them for the Dual ISO instead of DPAF like Canon does.

No they just change the analog circuit at different ISOs just like Sony and the aptina sensors instead of just applying a gain.

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11 minutes ago, Don Kotlos said:

No they just change the analog circuit at different ISOs just like Sony and the aptina sensors instead of just applying a gain.

"The VariCam LT has two native ISO settings: 800 and 5000. This means the VariCam LT achieves very high sensitivity while maintaining a low noise level at 5000 ISO. The noise level at 5000 ISO is nearly identical to that seen at 800 ISO. In order to achieve this function two dedicated analog circuits are implemented on every pixel of the imager of the VariCam LT for each native ISO before gain processing. This allows the camera to achieve much higher sensitivity without increased noise. Normally noise is introduced in the gain process of rating ISO in digital cameras. This functionality is revolutionary for low light scene shooting. Especially this ISO 5000 enables the camera to capture with very low available light maintaining a realistic mood."

Quote from Panasonic.

That is in no way what Sony Does.

Well maybe it does LoL. Basically the BSI usage as Sony calls it, is in essence dual pixels also.

http://image-sensors-world.blogspot.com/2017/06/sony-dual-conversion-gain-pixel-layout.html

This persons comment at the bottom sort of explains the path they use to pull it off.

"Not exactly, in Aptina's, the RST is directly connected to the FD while here, the RST is connected to the junction behind DCG. It means you have to open DCG to fully reset your FD."

Clear as mud LoL.

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12 minutes ago, webrunner5 said:

That is in no way what Sony Does.

 

They literally say that they use different analog circuits on every pixel. Not the same circuit or sensor but same method as Sony, same method as Aptina.

Definitely not what you are claiming:  

28 minutes ago, webrunner5 said:

I can only gather that the sensor in a Varicam 35, and the mini has dual pixels from what I have read sort of like Canon does, but uses them for the Dual ISO instead of DPAF like Canon does.

So in reality  Panasonic has two senors instead of the normal one. So each one is just for a different Native ISO.

2
1

So I am not sure why you disagree. If you want to learn a bit more about this you can read the documents that I attached my original reply. 

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It is not the same sensor for the Sony or the Panasonic. That write up is OLD tech. Both company's would have been sued long time ago. They have modified it, and Panasonic has Never claimed more DR like Sony has. Sony has No sensor that has true dual native ISO's.

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