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Andrew Reid

Time to step up - Panasonic GH5 must go 6K Super 35mm to compete in 2016

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Without doubt my favourite camera series of the last 5 years has been the Panasonic GH range.

But with the Sony A6300 on the horizon sporting a Super 35mm sensor with full 6K readout, is the future looking a bit shaky for Panasonic's video wunderkind?

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EOSHD Pro Color for Sony cameras EOSHD Pro LOG for Sony CamerasEOSHD C-LOG and Film Profiles for All Canon DSLRs

All good stuff. As far as GX9 thinking goes. I'm really happy with the portability of the M43 lens sizes. I don't mind more megapixels and more sensitive ones but retaining the M43 size seems a good idea to me. I think those are big points and I can see some exec complaining that it would send customers towards the FF bodies of the competition? Smaller points would be the ones I always mention in every post, better auto/follow focus in video, punch in focus in video, better stabilization in video, and possibly less wibbly wobbly bits. 

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Quote

Would you buy this camera?

• Panasonic GH5 for $1799, November 2016
• 6K video and 24MP stills
• Super 35mm mode for 6K video without pixel binning
•2x crop Micro Four Thirds mode for DCI 4K and Ultra HD
• Compatible with all Micro Four Thirds lenses
• 200Mbit/s H.264 codec and V-LOG 2.0
• Forthcoming Micro Four Thirds Premium / Plus lenses for the oversized sensor
• Full frame look with Metabones Speed Booster
• 4K RAW to Odyssey 7Q+ (please!!)

yeah tbh i would i like your thinking andrew v smart

m43, super 35, and ff lenses w/speed booster all on the same body. hot

i definitely agree that panasonic needs to step it up and be aggressive with the GH5/something under $2k id love to see this

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I'll gladly purchase this GH5...in fact, they might as well call it the GH6.  As much as I loved my GH2, GH3, and currently my GH4, the cropped sensor is crippling.  The Super 35mm sensor is a must, and 10bit internal recording with improved DR and color science, would set this camera apart from every other DSLR.  And lest we forget, internal stabilization.  

And while we're at it...Panasonic should incorporate more of an industrial design, with several 1/4 20 screw in points, and a more square, machined aluminum body.  This puppy should be the go to b-camera for their new Varicam, as well as for the Alexa.  LET'S GO PANASONIC...it's GAME TIME!  (I never post...but this thread and concept has me excited!)   

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I would be glad to have the next things on a gh5

 

-5K ... I don't mind the 6k... though... I still prefere the 4k but lets see if they can do 5k.  but with virable frame rate from 2f  up to 24...

-4k  - 60 fps?  90?

2k -  90?  120?

BUT FROM 2 FPS to WHATEVER THEY WANT...

-12 BIT  PLEASE! PLEASE PLEASE! for the odyssey!

 

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Andrew, basically you want an FS5 with Panasonic logo on it. VLOG 2.0? What's the problem with the 1.0? Noise and 8bit. Noise is sensor based problem, and noone offers 10 bit internal recording at this price range. I think Panasonic will stick with the 20MP m4/3 sensor which is already developed. 6K fullreadout 4K is reasonable, 4K 60 fps is also possibile. 

In the past 2-3 years Sony produced some awesome products and even Panasonic is too slow to do a reasonable reaction to them. I dont think GH5 can grow up to the expectations.

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24 minutes ago, gsenroc said:

But how about the lens? They don't have any s35 lens to support a new format yet. It could be very difficult to step up for them imo.

You didn't read the post did you!

12 minutes ago, Deadcode said:

Andrew, basically you want an FS5 with Panasonic logo on it.

No not really. That's not a small stills camera that does great video.

And it certainly isn't under $2k.

12 minutes ago, Deadcode said:

VLOG 2.0? What's the problem with the 1.0? Noise and 8bit. Noise is sensor based problem, and noone offers 10 bit internal recording at this price range.

Eh? Blackmagic offer 10bit in this price range, even under $1k with the Pocket.

5D Mark II raw, etc. with Magic Lantern also... that is 14bit.

Anyway, let's realise one thing about 10bit - it doesn't improve colour science, colour richness, colour in general - it only increases the number of brightness steps between shades.

I am pretty sure some people think of 8bit vs 10bit almost in a similar way computer gamers used to think of 8bit colour palette (255) versus 16bit!

It's really not that big a difference. Raw is.

12 minutes ago, Deadcode said:

I think Panasonic will stick with the 20MP m4/3 sensor which is already developed. 6K fullreadout 4K is reasonable, 4K 60 fps is also possibile.

Not a chance in hell they will put the 20MP GX8 sensor in it... that does 4K only from a very heavy crop.

12 minutes ago, Deadcode said:

In the past 2-3 years Sony produced some awesome products and even Panasonic is too slow to do a reasonable reaction to them. I dont think GH5 can grow up to the expectations.

We'll see. I have high hopes for it as you can see.

Anything less and people won't buy it.

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Yes! Sounds like what I've been saying lately! Would have a couple of other implementations in mind too, like 1440p/2.5K/2.7K with HFR...

Quote

On: (FT3) New larger GH4 firmware upgrade on the horizon. GH5 ready for early 2017?

No need for FF. The new APS-C Sony A6300 can close the gap to FF now with a focal reducer... that's the way to go what I'm concerned. I'd rather be using smaller lenses though. Something like what the JVC GY-LS300 did actually isn't even a half bad of an idea... you could have an all new APS-C line-up with MFT mount. Then still use existing MFT lenses and crop the APS-C sensor accordingly.

For the sensor 20MP sounds good. 24 as well. Take some of the Samsung NX1 chip infrastructure, they know how to pull data from the sensor effectively. Currently there's nothing between 1080p and 2160p. Howabout giving us GoPro standards 1440p and 2.7K? Blackmagic 2.5K? That allows for faster framerates, without having to resort to 1080p. Canon has set a new standard: 4K60p. In order for the image to be any good though, you gotta have that bitrate. So I can imagine they keep it a little tighter, to 48p or 30p. Then though, you can have 2.7 and 2.5K at 60p and 1440 at 120, 1080p at 240! Bits and codec. I hope they can do internal 10-bit ProRes.

Bunch of other stuff would be cool to implement, like in-body stabilization. But we'll just have to wait 'n see.

~  43 Rumors 4 days ago https://disqus.com/home/discussion/43rumorsadmin/ft3_new_larger_gh4_firmware_upgrade_on_the_horizon_gh5_ready_for_early_2017/#comment-2502767264

 

On 3-2-2016 at 0:51 AM, Cinegain said:

The JVC GY-LS300 kind of way doesn't seem so bad.

 

On 8-2-2016 at 10:54 AM, Cinegain said:

[..] Take a look at MFT and we have Blackmagic and Olympus quite capable of nice organic rendering as well. Blackmagic even in 2.5 and 4K. But 4K on Panasonic and Samsung crop sensors, it looks modern and digital, contrasty (not amazing dynamic range) and sharp. The Panasonic GH4 in 4K has a 2.3x crop, sure you can speedboost it. And a lot can be done still to make it look more filmic, perhaps just by using the right filters.. Samsung has no focal reducers availlable/possible, so you're stuck with S35. Not that S35 is a bad thing, I mean, c'mon, but a lot of people will contribute a filmic look partly to a shallowish depth of field. Colors on the Samsung are definitely nice. On Panasonic it takes a little bit of work using the right settings, profile and post-production.

And Sony, to get back on topic, well, Sony has always had awesome features... on paper, then the ergonomics/design, battery life, menu fiddling and most of all: color, left wishing for more (F35 though!). E-mount does have focal reducers, so you can actually narrow the gap between APS-C and fullframe. Never really looked that filmic or too modern, just looks like... Sony, for lack of better terms. Their fullframe systems are nice, but I ain't looking to spend that kind of money on a camera body. And I will mostly want to shoot with S35 glass, fullframe lenses are too bulky for most applications when travelling a lot, but with versatile E-mount, you could still adapt some to an APS-C camera though when on close-by location and feel like rigging up.

The A6300 inherits a lot of cool stuff we've come to seen on the likes of the RX10M2, RX100M4, A7RII and A7SII. Which kinda makes it an excellent choice, as now we have APS-C 4K in a mirrorless body with the option to use focal reducers (else I could've included the NX1). It packs most of the important features mirrorless cameras nowadays have and just seems like an excellent tool with good value. Sure I could see where they've could've upped their game even more... vari-angle touchscreen, headphone-jack, better ergonomics, better battery life, in-body stabilization. They could've included that easily and still come in at around half price of an A7SII/A7RII. Wouldn't have been a problem here. Now it's still exciting, but not as exciting as it could've been. Yet, for the money... being the only current 4K APS-C mirrorless on the market it should prove an interesting option for people who want to step-up from Micro Four Thirds and try the little up in performance on APS-C. I'm sure the sensor's new infrastructure will prevent overheating and should have nice usable lowlight performance up to and including ISO3200; ISO6400 perhaps? Then there's possibility to get closer to fullframe and get shallower depth of field more easily. As well as more choice of wide (adapted) lenses.

We will have to see how it will pan out. Seen quite nice things with both A7RII and A7SII, if the A6300 is anything like the A7RII S35 crop mode, we're in for a treat, I'd say?

 

On 8-2-2016 at 2:13 PM, Cinegain said:

Yeah, I'm a little bummed they're so eager on having a relatively thin camera profile. I don't find the E-M1 or GH4 too big for example. Or the NX1 or A7-series for that matter. If you want to go compact, the thing that really matters is the lenses. I mean, you could pick up a Panasonic GM1 and then adapt the Sigma 18-35mm f/1.8, but if you want to shoot the Sigma, you might as well have gotten the G7, since a sizeable lens will dwarf any camera.

I like Nikon's D5300. You'll often find yourself struggling a little with Panasonic MFT, it just doesn't have the same lowlight performance and organic rendering as APS-C, not to mention 24MP is awesome to have for shooting stills. It's just a shame the D5300 isn't mirrorless. But basically the A5100/A6000 kinda share that same sensor. But I think when they rolled out, they were aiming for the average consumer, not expecting people would want to shoot a little more serious video with... so I wasn't really interested that much. Now though, the A7S has proven people do care about video and there's quite a market there. Then they upped it in the video department with the cameras I keep on mentioning: RX10M2, RX100IV, A7RII, A7SII. 4K. HFR. S-Log. And now have transferred that kind of tech to APS-C mirrorless! So... although mostly a MFT shooter, I wouldn't mind a piece of that APS-C mirrorless pie. And chances are... if you're shooting video with the GH4/BMPCC/D5300, you already have Nikon mount lenses that can easily be adapted to E-mount. ;)

If you'd ask me to design the greatest camera to date with tech that's out now, it would probably have the Olympus E-M1 overall look and feel, with the grip, dual dials and everything; in-body stabilization too. Would probably have to be A7-series sized in order to fit all the things I want on it, haha. Then we can take something similar to the E-M5II vari-angle touchscreen and throw it on there. From the GH4 the WB/ISO/+/- buttons and battery life. Fujifilm XT-1 or Leica SL EVF. From Leica SL as well the OLED top LCD tech. Gotta have mic-in, headphone-out, fullsized HDMI port, dual memory slots. Sony's FS5 built-in electronic variable ND-solution and their E-mount. 20~24MP APS-C sensor. NX1's chip infrastructure for insane readouts and no overheating. Blackmagic internal ProRes/DNG RAW. Maybe a battery grip with some kind of mSata Speeddrive storage solution built-in when shooting 4.6K with it. You know, the good schtuff like that. (^^,)

So, when you say:

Quote

Would you buy this camera?

Panasonic GH5 for $1799, November 2016

6K video and 24MP stills

Super 35mm mode for 6K video without pixel binning

2x crop Micro Four Thirds mode for DCI 4K and Ultra HD

Compatible with all Micro Four Thirds lenses

200Mbit/s H.264 codec and V-LOG 2.0

Forthcoming Micro Four Thirds Premium / Plus lenses for the oversized sensor

Full frame look with Metabones Speed Booster

4K RAW to Odyssey 7Q+ (please!!)

I say: hell to da yes!! :grin:

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Would you buy this camera?

Panasonic GH5 for $1799, November 2016

6K video and 24MP stills

Super 35mm mode for 6K video without pixel binning

2x crop Micro Four Thirds mode for DCI 4K and Ultra HD

Compatible with all Micro Four Thirds lenses

200Mbit/s H.264 codec and V-LOG 2.0

Forthcoming Micro Four Thirds Premium / Plus lenses for the oversized sensor

Full frame look with Metabones Speed Booster

4K RAW to Odyssey 7Q+ (please!!)

 

interesting. You've said a lot of great things in the Article. 

I read some article (or comment) of Nino Leitner (or was it someone else?) where he said that his friend and he discussed that Panasonic should make an in-built equivalent of the Speed Booster, itself into Panasonic Bodies, for the added benefits (wider field of view and more light on the sensor). Panasonic could collaborate with the Metabones SpeedBooster guys. I am sure nobody minds a few more millions for collaborating :glasses:

Panasonic has not been building its own sensor (like almost everyone else), and depends on what Sony churns out. That's why, DJI also uses the GH4 sensor, as does Olympus and whoever else. Sony released 2 new sensors for the M4/3 format recently, one was a 16MP and another 20MP. Not too sure of their specs, since the full data sheet was not released. So, I guess there aren't too many M4/3 sensors options out there. 

6k = 19+MP at 24fps or more. I am not sure a DSLR sized (smaller actually) body would be able to handle that much workload, without grossly overheating. Maybe even having
other issues. Also, the file sizes would be noticeably larger (than 4k), especially at 4-2-2 10-bit.

The Codec on the GH lines should be 10-bit internal, on a smaller version of the Yagh body (maybe 1/2rd the Size with CF Fast Cards). 4k RAW to Odyssey 7Q would be great. 

Panasonic have advantages over the the other regarding not overheating, much longer battery life (especially wrt mirrorless pack), and smaller lenses.

Internal 5-axis stabilization would be excellent. 

Even better photos, with more resolution (I hope Sony has hidden a 24MP M4/3 sensor for Panasonic somewhere, though it seems unlikely, for now). Not sure how much better low light can go on the Sony M4/3 sensors.
 

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I actually wouldn't buy that camera if it was 8bit 4:2:0

People need to start shouting from the roof tops that it is no longer good enough. Whether Andrew chooses to believe it or not, the combination of 10 bit and 4:2:2 (or higher) is where you can really start to get the best out of log footage. I don't want to climb a mountain for 6 hours to then find my shots ruined by banding. 10 bit solves this issue and really helps the log curve store the information correctly.

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A crop sensor lens without a focal reducer is really missing a trick.

I never use my Lumix Micro Four Thirds glass now, with a few exceptions (SLR Magic 10mm) for the look.

Another few ways the GH5 could distinguish itself:

Global shutter

2K raw with compressed codec 10:1 (like RED) - long shot as RED have most of the patents!

2K Cinema DNG raw compressed 4:1 (doable)

Foveon sensor tech (long shot but Panasonic are working with Fujifilm on something similar)

Big step up improved colour and dynamic range

2.8K instead of 4K or 6K - smaller files, easier to edit

But that 2x crop sensor still lets it down, even with all that...

Super 35mm is run of the mill easy to do... so just do it!

10 minutes ago, sanveer said:

6k = 19+MP at 24fps or more. I am not sure a DSLR sized (smaller actually) body would be able to handle that much workload, without grossly overheating. Maybe even having
other issues. Also, the file sizes would be noticeably larger (than 4k), especially at 4-2-2 10-bit.
 

Well this is exactly what the Sony A6300 and Samsung NX1 are doing my friend... 6K = 20MP at 24fps+

NX1 has no heat issues

A6300 remains to be seen :)

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1 hour ago, Andrew Reid said:

You didn't read the post did you!

Of course I do, I read every post of you Andrew :D

But what I was thinking about is that they wouldn't want people to just buy a camera and done. They make profit with their lenses for this kind of camera! After all it's not a PL mount and it's not a BMD camera right? Even if they keep MFT mount, not all those M43 lenses can cover s35 sensor.

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17 minutes ago, Andrew Reid said:

A crop sensor lens without a focal reducer is really missing a trick.

I never use my Lumix Micro Four Thirds glass now, with a few exceptions (SLR Magic 10mm) for the look.

Another few ways the GH5 could distinguish itself:

Global shutter

2K raw with compressed codec 10:1 (like RED) - long shot as RED have most of the patents!

2K Cinema DNG raw compressed 4:1 (doable)

Foveon sensor tech (long shot but Panasonic are working with Fujifilm on something similar)

Big step up improved colour and dynamic range

2.8K instead of 4K or 6K - smaller files, easier to edit

But that 2x crop sensor still lets it down, even with all that...

Super 35mm is run of the mill easy to do... so just do it!

Well this is exactly what the Sony A6300 and Samsung NX1 are doing my friend... 6K = 20MP at 24fps+

NX1 has no heat issues

A6300 remains to be seen :)

True. Yeah, my Bad. 

Also, Andrew, the Sony made 20Mp M4/3 does 27fps at full res. So, I guess, with the right processing power, it would be easy to do full pixel readouts. At 20 MP. 6k

It's IMX269
http://www.sony.net/Products/SC-HP/IS/sensor2/products/index.html

 

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