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Andrew Reid

Time to step up - Panasonic GH5 must go 6K Super 35mm to compete in 2016

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Other than not having S35 I think the GH4 is still a front runner for small camera features/quality. Sony isn't offering 10bit4:2:2 output on their A7 and 6000 series. Like others have said if they offer S35 with the ability to record 12 bit RAW on the Odyssey, 1-120fps, that would be an excellent upgrade.

VLogL thru 10 bit is highly under rated in my opinion.

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15 minutes ago, andy lee said:

I'm talking with Panasonic UK about cameras for the movie I'm working on right now and Panasonic have denied there is a Gh5; when I asked them about the possible spec of this camera , they said the Gh5 does not exist .......

I wrote them a whole essay once about the FZ200, why it should have a successor, what it should be capable of and if they were already working on something like that... they responded in the nicest manner!

Quote

We appreciate that you have kindly taken the time to write to us with your enquiry.

In response, thank you for the feedback however, unfortunately at the time being we have no information regarding the cameras that will be released this year.

Nonetheless, you feedback will be sent to our Product Developing department to be taken into consideration for our future products.

I get that. Of course you can not leak information just because someone's curious. But little later the FZ1000 appeared which kind of touched all the points I discussed except perhaps for having that constant f/2.8 aperture throughout the zoomrange. Of course I don't think my feedback influenced the product one bit and they were probably having the same thoughts, but I felt heard and that kinda counts for something in my book.

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I like the idea of this hypothetical GH5 camera Andrew , its almost a mini Arri Alexa challenger in a tiny body , we might get parts of this eventually from Panasonic , it would be amazing all in one go , as you know I am a loyal Panasonic user I dont use any other cameras - I love what Panasonic do , getting them to switch to a super 35mm senor will be radical !! I'm sure there is a GH5 in the pipeline , they just are not ready to announce it yet ! Fingers crossed its another big step forward !

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A s35mm sensor with m4/3 mount is available in the JVC LS300 camera, so, yes, still a posibilty.

But i don't think that Panasonic take that route, but yes the GH5 need to make a huge step forward to compete against Sony offerings.

2.5k RAW recording, 13 stops, clean 3200 ISO and in body stabilization is what I'm waiting for the GH5.

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I think you're asking too much from what is basically a consumer camera. 
I think Panasonic is interested in output formats that meet predefined display specs, so you can throw 6K recording out the window. 

Best we can hope for is:
4K from a 6K (20mp) sensor with full readout of that sensor and no crop (closer to 5K in 16:9 mode) downsampled in camera. 
4K at 60fps and 200Mbps, 4K at 30/25/24 still being 100mbps
10-bit internal recording
Slightly higher dynamic range due to an improved sensor/DSP.
Maybe a choice of H.265 recording at the same bitrates.

They'll stick to an m43 size sensor. 
 

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This is what I want, but with 6k and internal 2K raw, for $1799:

S35

14+ stops of dynamic range with V-Log.

Dual native 800/5000 ISO

Weight: under 1 lb.

Formats: 4K, UHD, 2K and HD.

Apple ProRes 4444 (up to 30p), ProRes 422 HQ (up to 60p), HD, Panasonic’s AVC-ULTRA family of video codecs.

Support for the Academy Color Encoding System (ACES)

ND filters: CLEAR, 0.6, 1.2, 1.8

OLED EVF

24-bit LPCM audio in-camera

Focus Assist

IR (for scenes even darker than ISO 5000 can handle).

Anamorphic lens de-squeeze

Special REC functions (PreRec, interval, one-shot)

IP control via Panasonic’s AK-HRP200 camera remote controller

Built-in GPS

3G-HD-SDI

LAN

Genlock in

timecode in/out

USB2.0 Host and USB2.0 Device (mini B)

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We all have our wants... Personally I don't want to see Super 35 in the GH5 as I prefer the M43 format. As long as they can squeeze ISO up to 12600 and improve DR it's golden. I much prefer the smaller lenses and portability of the current Lumix lineup. If I wanted anything larger, Sony already has it, but you don't see me jumping ship even with all that ISO range they have. Based on the recent news of Panasonic sensors something tells me they can achieve these small bumps in features. 6K or 8K would certainly be nice as an option, but really if I had a choice between that and clean 4K 60fps or 120fps that is the route I would prefer.

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I struggle to see Panasonic coming up with a camera that won't work to its full capabilities with their existing lens range, as that limits what they can sell along with it. Also the bigger sensor will cost more and so make for a more expensive camera or lower margins.

The only argument in its favour is the lack of decent m43 sensors in the marketplace, so a GH5 is a tough camera to spec at present. (Panasonic haven't been designing new sensors for a while, they just restarted so any new products will be a long way away.) I doubt Sony will do another m43 sensor until their 20MP model makes its money back so they would need a sensor from another manufacturer and who will make one for such a small market, as a GH5 would be a low-selling camera (like the GH4)? The same argument would probably stop someone designing a s35 sensor just for Panasonic, if it's only 8MP (4k) at m43 image circle (16:9 crop) it's not going to be used in other more still-centric cameras vs. the 20MP Sony. So then the question becomes does anyone have an s35 sensor with enough pixels to do 4k at m43 image size (so 24MP-ish) while not costing a fortune? Also how will that affect sales of 4k Varicams at nice margins.

On the scaling of 6k down to 4k it depends on how well they can do it. I remember how the GH4 really doesn't do moire in 4k while the A7s did.

It might happen, but I think we're more like to get 4k/60p, internal 422 and an m43 size sensor.

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2 minutes ago, dr_jon said:

I struggle to see Panasonic coming up with a camera that won't work to its full capabilities with their existing lens range, as that limits what they can sell along with it. Also the bigger sensor will cost more and so make for a more expensive camera or lower margins.

1

take another look at how the JVC super35 chip in a m4/3 mount actually works - 

 

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5 hours ago, gsenroc said:

But how about the lens? They don't have any s35 lens to support a new format yet. It could be very difficult to step up for them imo.

Yep was going to suggest that the m4/3rds lenses won't natively cover a s35 sensor.  Be cook if they could implement a speedbooster sort of thing to use their old lenses.

 

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What the JVC does is upscale the sensor area in the smaller image circle to give you your video, but that won't do the resolution any favours. You can get some APS crop lenses sold with m43 mounts that should be okay for an s35 sensor, but does Panasonic want to sell the competition's lenses for them?

(Edit) Ah, posted the same time as Shield3 - they'd need a Speed "Reducer" as would have to spread the light out more, so would make the image duller and less sharp. Might work as a concept, but I think people would buy 3rd party lenses with a bigger image circle.

A 4k s35 sensor would kill it as a stills camera I guess, unless 6MP still floats anyone's boat these days.

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3 hours ago, AaronChicago said:

VLogL thru 10 bit is highly under rated in my opinion.

Why is it underrated?

The noise?

4 minutes ago, dr_jon said:

but does Panasonic want to sell the competition's lenses for them?

Only so far as what Sony and Metabones are already doing for Canon lens sales :)

14 minutes ago, Jimmy said:

Their existing lens range wont cover an s35 sensor though.

I know. Try reading the post.

3 hours ago, roxics said:

I think you're asking too much from what is basically a consumer camera. 
I think Panasonic is interested in output formats that meet predefined display specs, so you can throw 6K recording out the window. 

Best we can hope for is:
4K from a 6K (20mp) sensor with full readout of that sensor and no crop (closer to 5K in 16:9 mode) downsampled in camera. 
4K at 60fps and 200Mbps, 4K at 30/25/24 still being 100mbps
10-bit internal recording
Slightly higher dynamic range due to an improved sensor/DSP.
Maybe a choice of H.265 recording at the same bitrates.

They'll stick to an m43 size sensor. 

It has to beat the A6300 though, remember.

Not to mention differentiate itself with a unique selling point in a crowded market.

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14 minutes ago, Jimmy said:

Their existing lens range wont cover an s35 sensor though.

With the JVC tech (and with Canon sensor cropping), the lens doesn't need to cover the S35 sensor.

 

Furthermore, a lot of pros don't care about using any particular line of line of lenses, they just want versatility -- a shallow lens mount that will allow the mounting of any lens.

 

Really, the concept is super simple.  Just give us the shallowest lens mount possible and let us pros worry about "coverage."

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Adding to all those specs, the GH5 would blow every other camera if it had a HDR mode in video at least in 25 and 30fps, in theory even the GH4 could be capable of that as it easily makes 50 and 60fps in 1080p.
What could be sweet for creative work, besides selecting a different ISO for each "frame", selecting also the white balance for each High and Low ISO frame one would be awesome.

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7 minutes ago, tupp said:

With the JVC tech (and with Canon sensor cropping), the lens doesn't need to cover the S35 sensor.

But they upscale a lower-res image to 4k, will people really see a lower resolution image as a good thing?

7 minutes ago, tupp said:

Furthermore, a lot of pros don't care about using any particular line of line of lenses, they just want versatility -- a shallow lens mount that will allow the mounting of any lens.

The Pros may not care, but as I said above will Panasonic want to do a camera that works better with competitor's lenses.

7 minutes ago, tupp said:

Really, the concept is super simple.  Just give us the shallowest lens mount possible and let us pros worry about "coverage."

If the only market is Pros I don't think they'll sell enough to price it below the $4k mark.

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