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Blackmagic Pocket Cinema Camera 4K

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1 hour ago, mercer said:

I’ll believe that the P4K gets B-Raw when I see it. I won’t buy a camera based on what I hope it may end up having.

C'mon, I follow your point but... WTH it is BMD! What's your skepticism on them? Why that?

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5 hours ago, Anaconda_ said:

As you say, it depends on your usage and what you want out of a camera. I don't feel the need for a GH5s, however if I did have the GH5s I might pine for internal ProRes and RAW. 

It's also not about RAW for me. I wanted to shoot ProRes because the files off both my GX80 and LS300 were driving me nuts. In my experience no edit suite can play JVC's 422 files at all, and I was also having some issues with h264 realtime playback, even if the files are untouched. I'd imagine the GH5s would give me similar results. On the same machine, I can grade the ProRes files and playback in full quality as if it's nothing.

Sure you can convert the files to ProRes, but that adds a lot of time to the workflow. Yes you can also record externally, which I did on the JVC but that's more gear to carry around.

For me this camera is fantastic in the field, the only thing I need to carry that the other cameras don't need is extra batteries... in fact, the same batteries I'd have used in the recorders I mentioned. Then when I get home to edit, it's like I'm dreaming. 

Having used it almost daily since October, I'm fairly convinced I have the best camera available for my requirements, for everyone else, that may vary.

 

I have the GH5, GH5s, & BMPCC4K cameras. We do lots of events, frequently in low light, and always in 4K. I love the GH5 & GH5s combo, but it gets *really* time consuming having to encode the video for Final Cut. I have terabytes of footage on a weekly basis to process. Being able to record ProRes in camera was one of the reasons that I purchased several of the BMPCC4K cameras.

However, there *is* a solution for this issue now for the GH5/GH5s. Just get an Atomos Ninja V for the GH5/GH5s. You then get a larger screen and you get Prores recording.

But, your GH5s setup costs now costs ~$3k-$3,500 each, the Prores 422 files are even larger than the 400mbps All-I files from the GH5s, and you are running a big rig (compared to the BM).

The BMPCC4K really is an amazing package deal, despite its issues. We haven't yet fully switched away from the GH5(s), but I imagine that we will do so soon.

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19 minutes ago, Emanuel said:

C'mon, I follow your point but... WTH it is BMD! What's your skepticism on them? Why that?

I’m not here to knock BMD. I think they have done amazing things for indie filmmaking and I have owned a few of their cameras and have loved them. But they aren’t always the most reliable company based on promised specs or deadlines. The global shutter in the Micro comes to mind, as well as the missed release deadlines. Even with the P4K, they promised a September release, which they hit with... a dozen or so cameras being shipped?

With that being said, from a business standpoint, B-Raw in the P4K makes zero sense. Why on earth would they include a feature in their lowest model camera that they also include in their highest model? And since B-Raw was released the same week the first P4Ks shipped, then why didn’t they ship the cameras with B-Raw. It’s not like B-Raw was invented the week before.

With that being said, I really do hope the P4K gets an upgrade but I wouldn’t buy the camera on that basis alone.

But I am starting to warm up to the camera some after seeing your guy’s results. 

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A 50x difference...? LOL Coming from a writer/author to operate in the indie realm, ML lover no more than me, that's very funny to say the least : ) Sorry mate, I don't want to look like harsh with a forum buddy : D Just sayin' though ; ) It is what it is : -)

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In the past the law if pareto stated that 80% of results come from 20% of causes. I've seen this ring true so many times and with tech its more like 90:10. Now with the Alexa vs P4K we have a cost difference that's more like 98:2. So is the P4K 98% the camera at 2% the cost? Seems like it could be. Also considering that the P4K beats the Alex's in other specs like size, low light, media and peripheral costs, and of course price, the argument could be made the P4K is the better camera. Pair it with the right lens and then definitely. The 18-35 continues to impress. 

I'm out of town but my P4K is waiting for me at home. Can't wait to verify all the hype.

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14 hours ago, Emanuel said:

A 50x difference...? LOL Coming from a writer/author to operate in the indie realm, ML lover no more than me, that's very funny to say the least : ) Sorry mate, I don't want to look like harsh with a forum buddy : D Just sayin' though ; ) It is what it is : -)

Oh I hear you and get your point. But a huge difference in price isn’t necessarily a valid point for a visual comparison. You can do the same comparison with any cheap camera and ask the same question. It’s a gotcha comparison designed for a specific answer. 

For instance, I could do a similar comparison with a D5500 vs the Alexa. The D5500 has about 11 stops of DR... if I had to guess... but it has very clean shadows. Then I could say, “obviously the Alexa wins but it is a $65,000 camera vs. a $500 camera...”

Clearly in that video, the Alexa wins. No question.

With that being said, I felt the guy did a good job and it shows the strengths of the P4K... but he could have done that without the clickbait “vs” nonsense.

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20 hours ago, mercer said:

Being an FCPX user, ProRes is definitely the most interesting aspect to me. With that being said, I have zero need for 4K right now, so even though the camera is a steal, for a second camera, a Micro would/could make more sense for me. But then the allure of that Dual ISO sensor is appealing. Has anyone shot and shared any 1080p ProRes? In my brief search for it, I haven’t found much 1080p from the P4K, especially in 24p. 

I agree with you, the micro is very appealing at a lower budget. 

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8 hours ago, canonlyme said:

I agree with you, the micro is very appealing at a lower budget. 

I think that one of the things that people miss is just how capable the BMPCC4K is for the price. This camera opens up opportunities for content creators because of the features that it offers vs. the price point. With my setup (camera, cage, 1TB T5, extra batteries, etc.) I probably have around $2k in each rig.

Lots of people start out with inexpensive gear and move up. Your progression might be something like Sony A6300, then maybe Sony FF (A7 III) or other SLR hybrid camera. Once you have sufficient work (and $), you may transition to more traditional video cameras like C200, FS5, EVA1, etc. These bigger cameras are going to cost $5K -$10K each after you get them rigged out. You may even only have one (big) A cam and then a cheaper B cam due to budget constraints.

The BMPCC4K gives you the ability to have an A, B, and maybe even a C cam for roughly the same money as one of the traditional mid-tier cinema cameras, but gives you higher-end features like RAW recording and good dynamic range. I think that many people would be better served with a 2 or 3 cam setup of BMPCC4K's instead of 1 big A cam and a cheaper B cam. I run a 3 cam setup on almost every shoot. Having 3 matched cameras lets you have redundancy, makes matching footage easier, and has many other advantages.

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@mercer I've just read your wondering on 1080p ProRes from this new P4K.

It is so good, I don't even feel the need to shoot 4K there, go figure : )

Only private stuff so far, so I'm sorry to not have it for posting online. I don't want you or anyone else now can feel I am patronizing over here but trust me, this is the capture device a camera shooter can be looking for.

 

E : -)

On 1/18/2019 at 8:14 PM, mercer said:

Being an FCPX user, ProRes is definitely the most interesting aspect to me. With that being said, I have zero need for 4K right now, so even though the camera is a steal, for a second camera, a Micro would/could make more sense for me. But then the allure of that Dual ISO sensor is appealing. Has anyone shot and shared any 1080p ProRes? In my brief search for it, I haven’t found much 1080p from the P4K, especially in 24p. 

 

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1 hour ago, drm said:

The BMPCC4K gives you the ability to have an A, B, and maybe even a C cam for roughly the same money as one of the traditional mid-tier cinema cameras, but gives you higher-end features like RAW recording and good dynamic range. I think that many people would be better served with a 2 or 3 cam setup of BMPCC4K's instead of 1 big A cam and a cheaper B cam. I run a 3 cam setup on almost every shoot. Having 3 matched cameras lets you have redundancy, makes matching footage easier, and has many other advantages.

Excellent points.  People often discuss camera bodies in isolation without thinking about lenses or media, or often talk about those things as a single rig without thinking about those who have multiple camera setups, or those who talk about multiple camera setups often do so without taking into account that they're running a business and have to make money etc.

Having three matched cameras also guarantees things like compatibility of batteries, lenses, media, and then in post things like exposure / DR / bit depth as well as technical aspects like compatibility of file formats, etc.

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1 hour ago, Emanuel said:

@mercer I've just read your wondering on 1080p ProRes from this new P4K.

It is so good, I don't even feel the need to shoot 4K there, go figure : )

Only private stuff so far, so I'm sorry to not have it for posting online. I don't want you or anyone else now can feel I am patronizing over here but trust me, this is the capture device a camera shooter can be looking for.

 

E : -)

 

Well, get out and shoot some stuff... you owe it to the community to show me some 1080p ProRes.

But I’m sure it’s great... it sounds better, or at least as good as a Red.

I’m going to wait and see how a few things pan out before I make my next move, but this is definitely on the list.

@Ehetyz makes some amazing films on his UMP, so his endorsement of the P4K has pushed me a little closer, but since at this point, any camera will be a 2nd camera, I wonder if a Micro would make more sense. And then there’s the Ursa Mini 4K with its global shutter. Or a GH5. Or Z-Cam E2. Or X-T3...

Just saying there are a lot of options available to us right now. I’m smack dab in the middle of two projects, so I have zero reason to change systems until the summer or next fall by the earliest... maybe BH will have some P4Ks in stock by then... lol... of course by the time BMD has the preorders filled, they may have to offer a price cut because the camera will be 2 years old.🤪

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1 hour ago, mercer said:

Well, get out and shoot some stuff... you owe it to the community to show me some 1080p ProRes.

But I’m sure it’s great... it sounds better, or at least as good as a Red.

I’m going to wait and see how a few things pan out before I make my next move, but this is definitely on the list.

@Ehetyz makes some amazing films on his UMP, so his endorsement of the P4K has pushed me a little closer, but since at this point, any camera will be a 2nd camera, I wonder if a Micro would make more sense. And then there’s the Ursa Mini 4K with its global shutter. Or a GH5. Or Z-Cam E2. Or X-T3...

Just saying there are a lot of options available to us right now. I’m smack dab in the middle of two projects, so I have zero reason to change systems until the summer or next fall by the earliest... maybe BH will have some P4Ks in stock by then... lol... of course by the time BMD has the preorders filled, they may have to offer a price cut because the camera will be 2 years old.🤪

LOL I wish this community would pay my bills to match the countless responsibilities I have to fill the cup!

Time is short. I will tell you something though.

One of these days I'll have posted some paid gig shot with this same unit. Count on it : ) When people will probably be hysteric with some other new release over here.

That's my cup of tea, takes years to fulfill... : -)

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1 hour ago, Emanuel said:

One of these days I'll have posted some paid gig shot with this same unit. Count on it : ) When people will probably be hysteric with some other new release over here.

That's kind of the challenge isn't it.

We see people doing small budget fast turn-around projects like news reporting or micro-docs and doing a great job but these people are often too busy to talk about gear or just don't care about nerdy things, so we don't know what they're using or get their impressions.  Also, these people often have a really solid understanding of the fundamentals like exposure and controlling DR with excellent lighting, etc, and so for them most cameras with pro features are really the same because they can get great results with almost anything.
We see people doing small budget fast turn-around projects from nerds who like to talk gear, but most of the time they don't do a good job so their output isn't really demonstrating the potential.
And finally, we talk to people who are doing higher quality larger budget productions where we could really see what the potential of the equipment is, but things don't air for ages, so even if the person is willing to talk about gear and techniques etc we have to wait ages before the end result is broadcast and we can see things for ourselves (like John Brawley for example).  These people are often late adopters too, so they'll wait a year to pick up a camera, then after production it will be another year before the footage sees the light of day.

In a sense, the only chances we really have are the amateur YouTubers who have an interest in high-quality film-making to buy the latest gear and talk about it, who have the money from their full-time job to travel and point their camera at interesting things, and who have the time to do more than just slap on a LUT and upload.  

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11 minutes ago, kye said:

(...) then after production it will be another year before the footage sees the light of day.

Well, some people take this stuff a bit more serious than strictly in a geek perspective : -)

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@mercer and anyone else, I couldn't get to some woods, but I shot some high contrast spots. As I said before, I don't shoot RAW, so I exposed as I normally would. I hope you can get the info you wanted from this.

Total size 1.72gb - https://mega.nz/#F!3Fs0mSSS!0gMCbZYRQ47KKrmY8WN_YQ

All shot with Sigma 18-35 f1.8 (set to f4) on the Viltrox booster. All handheld, so excuse the shakiness. 

The RAW files are 4:1 and the others are ProRes HQ. The last 2 clips are the same shot, from the same position to show the crop when you shoot 1080p RAW. I believe its a 4x crop in RAW and 1.9x in ProRes - With the booster, those crop factors change, but maths isn't my strong suit, so I'll leave it to someone else to work that out.

 

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