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Blackmagic Pocket Cinema Camera 4K


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42 minutes ago, cantsin said:

The image of the old Pocket still has two weaknesses:

  • moiré - if you watch the video carefully and in full resolution, you see it everywhere;
  • resolution - with a native 1920x1080 Bayer sensor, the camera realistically just produces an optical resolution of about 720p.

There are third-party OLPFs for the old Pocket that greatly reduce - but not eliminate - moiré, but they lower resolution even more. 

There's a chance that the 4k sensor of the new Pocket alleviates moiré with high-resolution lenses. No doubt the camera will produce excellent 2k/1080p when downsampling its footage in post. But it doesn't have an OLPF either, unlike the GH5s (which likely has the same sensor), so I'm afraid that moiré will remain an issue.

A collerateral damage of the Pocket 4K's smaller sensor pixels will be dynamic range. Blackmagic advertises it as one stop less than the old Pocket. (And another question is whether using the camera at its second native ISO of 2500 will mean the loss of yet another stop of DR.) For the video that I posted here, this would have meant that the windows would have been completely blown out in all shots against the light.

I think the general rule is about a 20-30% hit (in theory) when using Bayer sensor over true pixel resolution.  I think that means the 1920 Bayer is more like 1440, not 720.  The first 4K Red ONE was a 4 K sensor, that in theory was really about 3.2K (with an aggressive OLPF) and never measures on an optical resolution chart more than about 2.7K.  So it arguably makes 4K RAW files filled with 2.7K resolution images.

We can easily test this on a resolution chart with the pcoket, but moire also complicates where you count resolution from.

To my mind the resolution hit of only a 1920 bayer is counter balanced by the substantially increased sharpness of no OLPF.

I think it's more fair to say that the UN-OLPF'ED pocket mostly presents an image that really truely is 1920 in feel, with occasional moire (or a lot depending on your shooting style)

JB

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@cantsin that is what I am worried about. I think they should have tried to boost it instead of reducing it. But then again I also have not much knowledge about the subject. When I shoot PHOTO real estate sometimes (not super super high value) I sometimes stopped to bracket stuff because the d750 RAWs are that crazy that if exposure is up to 3 stops over I might even be able to recover a fair bit and it is god enough for the purpose. I wonder how that relates to RAW video on the P4K.

I surpose my question is, does the 13 stops relate to jpg oder raw were you have a great amount of data?

 

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20 minutes ago, John Brawley said:

I think the general rule is about a 20-30% hit (in theory) when using Bayer sensor over true pixel resolution.  I think that means the 1920 Bayer is more like 1440, not 720. 

I was referring to vertical resolution (720p vs. 1080p) in the posting that you quoted - so actually, we're saying the same thing.

19 minutes ago, hansel said:

I surpose my question is, does the 13 stops relate to jpg oder raw were you have a great amount of data?

The 13 stops specification for the Pocket 4K refers to RAW and log capture. But dynamic range specifications in f-stops are rather unscientific anyway since they leave a lot of room for interpretation. (For example: If the lowest stop in the shadows is 99% noise and 1% signal, do you still count it or not as one stop dynamic range?) 

Nevertheless, these values tell something when they are given by the same manufacturer and differ between two camera models. Since BM specifies the Pocket 4K with one stop less DR than the old Pocket, it is safe to assume that it also will have one stop less DR in reality. [A rather logical consequence of smaller sensor pixels with lower full-well capacity.]

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3 hours ago, Anaconda_ said:

This is wrong...right?

A 35mm is always a 35mm lens, no matter what camera you ever put it on. People keep on forgetting this fundamental fact.

What people tend to be interested about however is FoV equivalence, and yeah a 35mm on a BMPCC4K would be slightly wider FoV than a 70mm on say a 5D or D800

 

 

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46 minutes ago, cantsin said:

I was referring to vertical resolution (720p vs. 1080p) in the posting that you quoted - so actually, we're saying the same thing.

The 13 stops specification for the Pocket 4K refers to RAW and log capture. But dynamic range specifications in f-stops are rather unscientific anyway since they leave a lot of room for interpretation. (For example: If the lowest stop in the shadows is 99% noise and 1% signal, do you still count it or not as one stop dynamic range?) 

Nevertheless, these values tell something when they are given by the same manufacturer and differ between two camera models. Since BM specifies the Pocket 4K with one stop less DR than the old Pocket, it is safe to assume that it also will have one stop less DR in reality. [A rather logical consequence of smaller sensor pixels with lower full-well capacity.]

Both the old pocket and pocket 4K are marketed as 13-stops of DR.

Pocket 4K has a larger sensor with much more advanced architecture from Sony (IMX294CJK). I'd speculate that the production version could offer slightly better DR than the old pocket.

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I would much rather have the option to add a OLPF filter to a camera than have no choice in the matter. Under a lot of circumstances moire is not a problem at all on a lot of shoots. Why loose the sharpness and perceived resolution gain if you don't have too..

I would be nice if they did what Sigma did, does with their cameras with a removable one.

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18 hours ago, cantsin said:

 

When the Pocket was reviewed a few years ago on Provideo Coalition, I believe it measured a full 1920x1080, or very close to it, with charts supplied to back up the claim -- with the usual caveat that you will see moire at the far end.   Do you have better information?

As for the color in your sample -- sorry, but to my eyes, it looks like barely graded log footage.  And, given the lighting and shooting style, it's Impossible to assess much of anything, unless the object is to achieve just that -- an unlit log look.    But, in that case, any number of cameras can produce much the same.

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1 hour ago, sanveer said:

I am curious, as to where you found this information from. Source? 

As I wrote further above, my bad - I'd wrongly remembered the original Pocket to have been specified with 14 stops. So, in reality, BM claims that the Pocket 4K will have the same dynamic range as its predecessor.

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On 6/20/2018 at 7:04 PM, IronFilm said:

It isn't hard to see how the E2 could be viewed as a premium camera relative to the BMPCC4K for some people's needs and worth the premium 

I can see how that argument would work... in a parallel universe where we hadn't already seen the prerelease footage.

The footage is bad.  We all agree on that.  And the company has a terrible track record.  No way I touch that camera whether the BMPCC 4K exists or not.

No raw.  No prores.  No USB C recording.  No xlr.  No 5 inch screen.  No Davinci Resolve.

One of two things will happen.  Either the footage will get dramatically better or the price will drop to sub $1,000.  Even if the footage was pretty decent I just don't see myself swapping all the other things Blackmagic is giving you just to get 120 fps in a compressed codec.  I get that some people are crazy about high frame rates but I am not going to dump a ton of every day work horse features for one niche thing I would use sparingly.

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I don't see how they can sell it for 500 dollars with the BM coming out. And at some time you will be able to buy the 4K BMPCC without the Resolve Dongle. You know that is going to happen, and that it will really be just 995 bucks. The E2 is dead in the water unless you Need a little form factor. And it's not like the BMPCC is Hugh either. Sure it's bigger but..

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2 hours ago, webrunner5 said:

And at some time you will be able to buy the 4K BMPCC without the Resolve Dongle. You know that is going to happen, and that it will really be just 995 bucks.

I'm fairly confident that won't happen. Resolve is included free in the package, it's not a forced addon. It doesn't cost BM a penny to put a license in the box, but they would lose a lot of pennies for every sale they don't include it. I'm sure after a while you can buy the camera on it's own, but only on the second hand market. In fact, you're much more likely to find cheap Resolve licenses from people who have bought two cameras and only need one license. 

Look at it like this. You go to a store to buy 4 apples and you're given these options:

$2 for 4 apples 

or

$3 for 4 apples + two free apples

Those extra apples aren't free.

Similarly if you argue that 'I already have a Resolve license so don't want the free license, can I have a discount instead?' That's also not going to work. Imagine buying a new camera that uses the same batteries as the camera you've already got. You can't ask the store to take the battery out the box and give you a discount - why would this be any different?

 

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3 hours ago, webrunner5 said:

I don't see how they can sell it for 500 dollars with the BM coming out. And at some time you will be able to buy the 4K BMPCC without the Resolve Dongle. You know that is going to happen, and that it will really be just 995 bucks. 

Huh ?  

Can't see that happening ever.  They've never done it.  More like they do a price drop sometime WITH resolve to $995.  They did something similar with the pocket about 18 months after they launched if I remember.  In fact I think it dropped even more than that.

JB

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Besides, you need the Studio version of Resolve to edit the 4K DCI files from the Pocket 4k. Unlike with the old Pocket, the free version will not be enough. And Resolve is AFAIK the only editing program that can open the camera's 3:1 and 4:1 compressed RAW files.

(I still predict a rude awakening for many first-time buyers of a BM camera who might have underestimated the practical necessity of a Resolve workflow, the computer hardware you need for editing 4K RAW, and the cost of recording media.)

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Regarding DR, I have a hunch that the pocket 4K will have slightly less than the  older pocket due to the older cam having larger photosites and dual gain architecture.  But sony sensor design is good so we will wait and see.

FFMPEG colors are all kinds of wrong.  I work in VFX and we used them to export prores back to clients as you can't do that in a windows environment, and one of the clients noticed a 1% difference in the red channel of one of our images. 

Since then programs like Assimilate scratch, Nuke, etc. can do it but that is more recent.

 

As far as free updates for life, one of the most notable programs of all time has to be FL Studio.  They have offered free upgrades since the very beginning over 20 years ago.

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3 hours ago, John Brawley said:

Huh ?  

Can't see that happening ever.  They've never done it.  More like they do a price drop sometime WITH resolve to $995.  They did something similar with the pocket about 18 months after they launched if I remember.  In fact I think it dropped even more than that.

JB

Yep, this is what I'll be waiting for - they dropped the Pocket to half price & it was a steal, no contest!

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