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Those 18 stop RED claims are ridiculous.  Download the R3D's of the xyla chart and try them out for yourself in davinci resolve.  It's VERY hard to produce the dynamic range numbers they are claiming.  Those xyla chart images are misleading as they use frame averaging of multiple frames to remove noise and they use multiple ISO settings within the R3D and composite the results together.  That's not how you use a xyla chart.

 

The sensor in that video that's 18 stops is the Dragon 8K VV sensor which was never released.  Now it's the monstro sensor which supposedly is a little better.

 

In order to reveal the dynamic range numbers phil is getting, I have to set the ISO to the highest settings and crank it up further just to dig into the shadows. Even then I still can't get as much information as he is clearly getting so I have no idea what he's doing. If the camera captures 18 stops of DR, it's very hard to reveal it all and impossible to use.  

 

For a long time people on there was a long thread where asked one simple question:  If Red Dragon and Alexa captured xyla images and were processed in exactly the same method would the Alexa show the same or better dynamic range than the dragon?  Everyone was dancing around the answer when the main tester who was comparing both cameras eventually broke down and said that he believed the Alexa would show more dynamic range.  Likewise, there are tons of tests showing that without digging up lots of noise, the Alexa still does have more usable DR than helium and dragon cameras.

 

There's even old RED images showing alexa and RED MX xyla chart images side by side with a minimal DR difference.  But we all know that isn't remotely true.

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Those Red  cameras that have high DR also have Huge sensors in them. 40.96 mm x 21.60 mm. Any camera that has a larger senor and is 6K, 8K shooting Raw is going to be one hell of a lot better with DR.

Why do you think top Fashion, Landscape people use Medium Formats cameras. Because they want more DR than you are going to get from a FF sensor. It is simple Physics. When you do the same Xyla chart images test with a M4/3 senor they suck, just like they should compared to a senor that is 40.96 mm x 21.60 mm that has a 16bit output, and uses a heck of a lot better Codec than a a GH4 is using..

And the Panavision  Millenium DXL2 uses RED's Monstro 8K VistaVision sensor, giving it 16-bit, 8,192 x 4,320 RAW output with a claimed 16 stops of dynamic range. So who knows what is what, but I ca guarantee you it is a lot more stops than the average Joe Blow has in the camera they can afford.

Personally I think all this talk about the GH5, Canon 5D mk IV, Sony A7... having 12, 13 stops is horse shit also. It probably is in reality more like 10.5 stops. And the big boys are at 16 stops. If BM is Only claiming 13 stops for the 4K BMPCC, the GH5s sure as hell is not 14.5 stops when it doesn't even shoot Raw video. Raw usually adds 1 1/2 stops. So the GH5s is probably 10.5 like I have said. The Canon 5D mk III is more like 9.5 stops in reality. Oh then you output it all in Rec 709 and you get a lovely 7 stops.

 

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11 minutes ago, kye said:

Should we start a petition for Canon to make a consumer Medium-Format video-centric ILC?  Some would argue that if we're going to dream then we should dream BIG!

You know I am surprised Canon never has made a MF camera. They still sort of are the Ultimate camera you can buy, especially for Photos.

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7 minutes ago, webrunner5 said:

You know I am surprised Canon never has made a MF camera. They still sort of are the Ultimate camera you can buy, especially for Photos.

In what way are they the ultimate?  The resolution used to be the thing that differentiated them, but now the resolutions are matched in FF by A7R / 5DS etc.  I guess you're still talking DR?

If we're going for ultimate then why not a Large Format sensor?  This guy showed that the physical size is manageable..  

If you wrapped the guts of a cinema camera around that it would barely increase the size at all!

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18 minutes ago, kye said:

In what way are they the ultimate?  The resolution used to be the thing that differentiated them, but now the resolutions are matched in FF by A7R / 5DS etc.  I guess you're still talking DR?

If we're going for ultimate then why not a Large Format sensor?  This guy showed that the physical size is manageable..  

If you wrapped the guts of a cinema camera around that it would barely increase the size at all!

Well DoF is one of the best advantages, the 3D look. And yeah they have more DR. And until lately they were all CCD sensors. They had a Lot better colors also but sucked at higher ISO's.

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26 minutes ago, IronFilm said:

There looks like there is still a bit of a T/S effect going on in those video clips?

I'd be amazed if there wasn't!

The digital camera inside the "camera obscura" chamber uses T/S to view the projection, and the other lens may also be using it, I'm not sure (I haven't watched that video in a while).

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1 minute ago, kye said:

The digital camera inside the "camera obscura" chamber uses T/S to view the projection

Yes, that is what I noticed from the video, and I wondered if its positioning needed to be further tweaked to help fix that or if it couldn't be.

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1 minute ago, IronFilm said:

Yes, that is what I noticed from the video, and I wondered if its positioning needed to be further tweaked to help fix that or if it couldn't be.

I'm sure that when Canon makes their Large Format consumer ILC¬†(WHEN! - ha ha ha) they'll sort it out ūüėāūüėāūüėā

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4 hours ago, Savannah Miller said:

Those 18 stop RED claims are ridiculous.  Download the R3D's of the xyla chart and try them out for yourself in davinci resolve.  It's VERY hard to produce the dynamic range numbers they are claiming.  Those xyla chart images are misleading as they use frame averaging of multiple frames to remove noise and they use multiple ISO settings within the R3D and composite the results together.  That's not how you use a xyla chart.

 

The sensor in that video that's 18 stops is the Dragon 8K VV sensor which was never released.  Now it's the monstro sensor which supposedly is a little better

Actually RED initially were claiming 20 stops when they were first releasing images. Anyone else remember this ?

www.thephoblographer.com/2013/01/01/reds-dragon-sensor-lives-up-to-hype-of-20-stops-of-dynamic-range/amp/

and sure you can count 20 stops in that image. 

But we all know they don’t really have 20 stops. 

So anytime someone makes a claim about stops (including Blackmagic) I always judge by actually shooting something, preferably alongside another known like an Alexa. 

JB

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The original Arri Alexa did not do Raw other than to an external recorder. And at the time of introduction Arri claimed the following. As you can see they were Only claiming 14 stops.  You have to figure the Alexa is "Only" outputting Arri RAW 2.8K in 12 bit. So it is not going to be super high.

Long story short a lot of cameras really don't put out as much DR as you would think. But I want to correct my above statement about the DR of the Canon 3D mk III. I said 9.5, I meant 10.5 maybe 11.

 

ALEXA Classic EV Features

BEST OVERALL IMAGE QUALITY

Film-like, organic look

High Dynamic Range

14+ stops exposure latitude over the entire EI range as measured with the ARRI Dynamic Range Test Chart

future proof for High Dynamic Range (HDR) displays

16 bit in-camera processing

 

But there is this article that was interesting at the time.

https://nofilmschool.com/2014/07/sony-a7s-dynamic-range-arri-alexa-amira

And this older one.

https://nofilmschool.com/2013/03/blackmagic-cinema-camera-red-epic-arri-alexa-raw-test-part-3-overexposure

 

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1 hour ago, webrunner5 said:

The original Arri Alexa did not do Raw other than to an external recorder. And at the time of introduction Arri claimed the following. As you can see they were Only claiming 14 stops.  You have to figure the Alexa is "Only" outputting Arri RAW 2.8K in 12 bit. So it is not going to be super high.

Long story short a lot of cameras really don't put out as much DR as you would think. But I want to correct my above statement about the DR of the Canon 3D mk III. I said 9.5, I meant 10.5 maybe 11.

 

ALEXA Classic EV Features

BEST OVERALL IMAGE QUALITY

Film-like, organic look

High Dynamic Range

14+ stops exposure latitude over the entire EI range as measured with the ARRI Dynamic Range Test Chart

future proof for High Dynamic Range (HDR) displays

16 bit in-camera processing

 

But there is this article that was interesting at the time.

https://nofilmschool.com/2014/07/sony-a7s-dynamic-range-arri-alexa-amira

And this older one.

https://nofilmschool.com/2013/03/blackmagic-cinema-camera-red-epic-arri-alexa-raw-test-part-3-overexposure

 

Resolution doesn't affect dynamic range.  Resolution only increases detail when you downscale so when maybe you get 1/2 stop more "resolved" details in the shadows vs. a lower resolution image.  The Alexa and BM cameras use dual sensor readout to get their high dynamic range perfomance.  RED builds high dynamic range sensors with high resolution, but because the photo-site size is smaller, they've always danced around the Alexa in terms of dynamic range.  Dragon was pretty close to Alexa DR but Helium was less.  Maybe the weapon processing of dragon improved things, but it still wasn't noticeably more if than the Alexa unless you lift up the shadows and denoise.  Gemini and Monstro are large photosite sensors.  Gemini is only 5K, but Monstro is 8K large format.  Those sensors are now probably more DR than the Arri Alexa, but they're still not a lot more.

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2 hours ago, John Brawley said:

Actually RED initially were claiming 20 stops when they were first releasing images. Anyone else remember this ?

www.thephoblographer.com/2013/01/01/reds-dragon-sensor-lives-up-to-hype-of-20-stops-of-dynamic-range/amp/

and sure you can count 20 stops in that image. 

But we all know they don’t really have 20 stops. 

So anytime someone makes a claim about stops (including Blackmagic) I always judge by actually shooting something, preferably alongside another known like an Alexa. 

JB

The backyard test (paling fence in full shade, blue sky, fluffy clouds) sorts the actual from the aspirational dynamic range. BM marketed the BMMCC as 13 stops. I tested the BMMCC raw against the 5D Mk3 raw (11.7 stops) and the 5D had more latitude in the grade.

Good write up on dynamic range vs latitude: http://www.xdcam-user.com/2013/11/whats-the-difference-between-latitude-and-dynamic-range/

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5 hours ago, squig said:

The backyard test (paling fence in full shade, blue sky, fluffy clouds) sorts the actual from the aspirational dynamic range. BM marketed the BMMCC as 13 stops. I tested the BMMCC raw against the 5D Mk3 raw (11.7 stops) and the 5D had more latitude in the grade.

Good write up on dynamic range vs latitude: http://www.xdcam-user.com/2013/11/whats-the-difference-between-latitude-and-dynamic-range/

Latitude might be due to your skill and using Adobe camera raw.  BMCC has more latitude in the grade than the 5d mark III, you just have to know how to work it.  Adobe camera raw is a bit weird and not ideal for the camera.

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2 hours ago, Savannah Miller said:

Latitude might be due to your skill and using Adobe camera raw.  BMCC has more latitude in the grade than the 5d mark III, you just have to know how to work it.  Adobe camera raw is a bit weird and not ideal for the camera.

I'm talking about the Micro Cinema Camera, not the BMCC. I graded both in Resolve.

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8 hours ago, squig said:

The backyard test (paling fence in full shade, blue sky, fluffy clouds) sorts the actual from the aspirational dynamic range. BM marketed the BMMCC as 13 stops. I tested the BMMCC raw against the 5D Mk3 raw (11.7 stops) and the 5D had more latitude in the grade.

Good write up on dynamic range vs latitude: http://www.xdcam-user.com/2013/11/whats-the-difference-between-latitude-and-dynamic-range/

How do you measure stops on a "backyard" test ?

Again the only meaningful way to measure in my view is to shoot side by side in the same situation.  Then you can say categorically one is better than the other.

Like when I comapred an Alexa to an Ursa Mini 4.6K here

https://johnbrawley.wordpress.com/2016/03/23/ursa-mini-4-6-and-alexa-side-by-side/

I think all camera manufacturer claims are kind of meaningless.  They're almost ALWAYS derived by calculating a theoretical dynamic range from the sensor SNR and not from actually photographing anything. They don't sit their with charts in a lab.  The do it with maths from a spec sheet.   Arri are the only company that have actively UNDERSTATED their claims of DR. 

Most accept that an Alexa is a stop and half better than what Arri claim.

Arri also make their own DR chart which I've never seen anyone use publicly..

https://www.arri.com/arriajax?mod=productList&product=263

The actual photographable DR is pretty much impossible to measure anyway because none of us can agree on how much noise is too much.  What you think is acceptable I may not. So who is right ?

Noise is subjective. Everyone feels differently about how much is acceptable.  That's why oyu can post a picture of a 20 wedge chart and say hey it's got 20 stops !

And by the way that article trying to make use of the word "latitude" is also highly subjective.  It's some individual person's SUBJECTIVE view about what's USEABLE DR. So what is useable DR ?  What does that mean in a SCIENTIFIC repeatable way ?   Latitude is another meaningless phrase like "useable dynamic range"

What does useable mean to that one individual ?

In what scenarios does that change ?  Low light / low contrast over daylight high contrast ?

The only time I see the phrase "useable dynamic range" being useful is when you're in log encoded video and you're trying top re-position a tone that's been recorded near clipping and when you try that it can look pallid and weak.

So you have a skin tone that isn't technically clipped but when you put it from 90% and put it at 30% it looks crappy and weird.

This is not a limitation of dynamic range per se, but the shortcoming of LOG encoding video curve being used and assigning less "bits" to that part of the curve.  It's a form of compression.  

Arri do 16 bit linear-->12 bit log at RAW.  So do Blackmagic when shooting DNG.  Sony RAW is also 16 bit LIN @ 3:1 (on an F55 anyway)

JB

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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