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Blackmagic Pocket Cinema Camera 4K

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7 hours ago, webrunner5 said:

No.  The sensors in red cameras are sunk too far into the bodies for certain mounts (e-mount being one of them.)  And because of the distance the sensor is from the body opening, it's very hard to build a speedbooster.  The currently developed abt speedbooster for the RED cameras is ridiculously expensive because every speedbooster is built by hand from one of red's mounts (which are already expensive.)  And on top of that, the ABT speedbooster is not a huge sensor size increase like Metabones is, it's much smaller.  Imagine a speedbooster on the Raven, which is basically a micro 4/3 EF mount camera.  Not possible.

 

RED has promised to stick with the DSMC2 body design for another few years so that will also limit what they can do with their cameras.

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2 hours ago, Savannah Miller said:

No.  The sensors in red cameras are sunk too far into the bodies for certain mounts (e-mount being one of them.)  And because of the distance the sensor is from the body opening, it's very hard to build a speedbooster.  The currently developed abt speedbooster for the RED cameras is ridiculously expensive because every speedbooster is built by hand from one of red's mounts (which are already expensive.)  And on top of that, the ABT speedbooster is not a huge sensor size increase like Metabones is, it's much smaller.  Imagine a speedbooster on the Raven, which is basically a micro 4/3 EF mount camera.  Not possible.

 

RED has promised to stick with the DSMC2 body design for another few years so that will also limit what they can do with their cameras.

The Sony E mount has a depth of 18mm which is way too shallow for using on a Red camera. The sensor is nearly on the flange on Sony cameras. Look at this picture of a FS7 mk II.

This the the Kinefinity mount options. Other than E mount I don't see anymore listed that Red has. Actually there is less of them.

http://www.kinefinity.com/product-category/kine_acc-en/previous-accessories/mount-adapters/?lang=en

Sony E mount.jpg

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10 hours ago, Savannah Miller said:

I'm 100% for a collaboration with Olympus to build a model with IBIS and Autofocus.  They are ahead of the game in those areas for micro 4/3.

If blackmagic built a camera with a sony sensor (like mavo 6k, DJI, etc.), shrunk the size down,  kept the same color science, and added autofocus, it would be a slam dunk against cameras like the c200 because of no market segmentation and professional features like prores.  I mention a sony sensor because it will have higher iso performance and lesser cooling requirements, leading to a smaller camera.

Thank you. IBIS, Autofocus AND Weather-sealing 😎

Also, Olympus and Sigma (who incidentally seems to have designed and made the Panny Leica Nocticron) are leading the 4/3 Party in lens quality and selection. If Blackmagic could convince either of them to make fast constant zooms (f1.8 - 2), the collaboration could benefit every camera company using the M43 ecosystem. The f1.2 Olympus Primes are already superb, and a cine version of them could replace almost every other 4/3 cine lens system out there. 

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31 minutes ago, sanveer said:

Thank you. IBIS, Autofocus AND Weather-sealing 😎

Also, Olympus and Sigma (who incidentally seems to have designed and made the Panny Leica Nocticron) are leading the 4/3 Party in lens quality and selection. If Blackmagic could convince either of them to make fast constant zooms (f1.8 - 2), the collaboration could benefit every camera company using the M43 ecosystem. The f1.2 Olympus Primes are already superb, and a cine version of them could replace almost every other 4/3 cine lens system out there. 

Weather sealing is unnecessary.  You need ventilation for cooling, and as long as the electronics are not exposed directly, it's not a problem.  For a cinema camera I'd rather have higher framerates and features over weathersealing.

 

IBIS I don't see blackmagic ever doing, because unless the build more into micro 4/3, IBIS doesn't work nearly as well on super 35 and full frame cameras.  I would like to see a BM camera with IBIS, but not sure if that will ever happen. I would say autofocus is a possibility, especially since it would be useful anyways as more cameras get it and they won't want to be behind.

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53 minutes ago, Savannah Miller said:

Weather sealing is unnecessary.  You need ventilation for cooling, and as long as the electronics are not exposed directly, it's not a problem.  For a cinema camera I'd rather have higher framerates and features over weathersealing.

 

IBIS I don't see blackmagic ever doing, because unless the build more into micro 4/3, IBIS doesn't work nearly as well on super 35 and full frame cameras.  I would like to see a BM camera with IBIS, but not sure if that will ever happen. I would say autofocus is a possibility, especially since it would be useful anyways as more cameras get it and they won't want to be behind.

I agree qeather sealing is probably not necessary, maybe because its not going to be used as a sports cam. 

IBIS is great for smaller crews and gor guerrilla work, or walking (which is impossible with stabilized lenses alone). IBIS is more successful in M43 cameras because the mount is usually much smaller than the sensor, and the sensor has more space to move around (especially in comparison to Sony's cameras woth IBIS).

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The Red Raven is a micro 4/3 camera in 16x9 mode so it would be so much easier if it was a true Micro 4/3 mount, but that's likely not possible because the sensor is too far into the body.  Sticking with the DSMC2 design limits them with certain features they can/cannot add as well as cooling.  Blackmagic is much more flexible in building cameras that match the sensors.

RED probably gave the full 4.5K due to competition from the ursa mini 4.6K.

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I personally don't see the big deal with IBIS in a camera like the Pocket 4K especially with all the hand-held gimbals on the market. Every lens and camera becomes stabilised with a gimbal and with the price of the Pocket 4K, you should be able to afford a good gimbal if you need stabilised shots. 

Sure, a gimbal is a little more cumbersome than IBIS but gimbals work much much better than ANY stabilised sensor. And if you are buying the Pocket4k, you are most likely shooting RAW or ProRes (pro formats) so you should be chasing pro results that a gimbal can give you and IBIS can't. If you are a hobbyist and just shoot handheld with no rigging , the pocket4k is overkill (even for the price) or get a stabilised lens but a Mirrorless or DSLR with IBIS might be a better option for you. Despite the price, this is a cinema camera and how many cinema cameras have IBIS? I'm not willing to pay for it or deal with its setbacks even when disabled. 

 

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52 minutes ago, Savannah Miller said:

I don't like the look of a gimbal, but I don't 100% need IBIS either.  I also hate the look of the tiny shakes you get with smaller cameras too.  I prefer a steadicam or glidecam alternative, or some sort of shoulder/chest stabilizer.

I agree that a gimbal still doesn't replace a steadycam for smoothness but from what I've seen of the ronin s, the gap is certainly closing. I've seem some super smooth stuff from the ronin s..... Something IBIS will never replicate. 

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21 minutes ago, Savannah Miller said:

I don't like the locked off look of a gimbal for a lot of scenarios, but it depends.  I prefer a smooth movement, but one that looks "real."  A handheld camera with really good ibis is exactly the look I like, but that's mostly for stationary shots.  

For stationary shots, try a monopod or shoulder rig if you want some natural looking movement. 

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9 hours ago, webrunner5 said:

This the the Kinefinity mount options. Other than E mount I don't see anymore listed that Red has.

E mount is a major advantage though, as that opens up a wealth of options. (for instance any of the zillions of E mount adapters, or many manual E mount lenses such as the Veydra cinema lenses!)

 

3 hours ago, Savannah Miller said:

The Red Raven is a micro 4/3 camera in 16x9 mode so it would be so much easier if it was a true Micro 4/3 mount, but that's likely not possible because the sensor is too far into the body. 

RED Raven's "low" price + a MFT mount might have made it a too compelling option for RED buyers to instead get!

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8 hours ago, Tone1k said:

I agree that a gimbal still doesn't replace a steadycam for smoothness but from what I've seen of the ronin s, the gap is certainly closing. I've seem some super smooth stuff from the ronin s..... Something IBIS will never replicate. 

What exactly did you see?  I didn't look at all of it, but the stuff the company posted is impossible to evaluate -- lots of cool slow motion and ramps, shots which last 1.5 seconds, shots without stable horizontal or vertical references, etc.  Ronin-S can't change the laws of physics or make for better skilled operators....   

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7 hours ago, IronFilm said:

E mount is a major advantage though, as that opens up a wealth of options. (for instance any of the zillions of E mount adapters, or many manual E mount lenses such as the Veydra cinema lenses!)
 

Just to be clear, the E mount option on Kinefininty is a DUMB mount as far as I know. No Iris control etc. 

You can't actually use native E mount lenses on there, but it's an intermediate mount for adapting to many others. 

Just like the MFT version of the BMCC that BMD did. DUMB MFT mount as a way to adapting to other mounts.

MFT offers the same "open" flexibility of a short FFD too and adapts to pretty much anything that E can adapt to. And on this camera it's a native MFT mount too with all the options 🙂

JB

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11 hours ago, Savannah Miller said:

The Red Raven is a micro 4/3 camera in 16x9 mode so it would be so much easier if it was a true Micro 4/3 mount, but that's likely not possible because the sensor is too far into the body. 

Red has been building cameras for going on almost 20 years now. I know, I had the original Red One on order for over a year. It is easy to look back and say, Oh they should have done that, they should have done this. The Red One was a groundbreaking camera that has bought about a lot more groundbreaking cameras that we can actually afford to buy. Your beloved Kinefinity is one of the spinoffs thanks to Red. Kinefinity has been making cameras for 5 years, 2013, and they have made great strides no doubt in that time.

I am not a big fan of Any camera manufacturer anymore. My days of buying, renting, using high end stuff for a living, hobby are over. I am retired so probably this new 4K BMPCC is as high price as I can really justify to go with the money I make now. But I don't think even though it doesn't cost too much is detracting from it's ability to probably hold it's own cameras 5 times it's price. So why pay more for what I do and need. Probably true for lot more people than me. ☺️

 

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@John Brawley sorry for the OT but  we just finished watching the end of the first season of The Resident and I really enjoyed the visuals. I loved the handheld work... what kind of rig were you using again?

Also as far as props go... how realistic is the production? In the last episode, the story line called for a Dacron graft for the aortic valve repair... my GF had an aortic tear repaired a decade ago and has a Dacron graft... she was curious if that was a real prop of the graft?

Also I know you said you shot it in 1080p but Fox broadcasts 720p... did you guys downscale the 1080p to 720p for delivery, or does Fox take care of that?

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1 hour ago, John Brawley said:

Umm.

Shipping for more like 10 years (just) and not much longer than that as a company.

JB

Like I said I had an order for one probably back in 2006. It was over a year I guess before they shipped. I had been talking with Jim Jannard on the phone and with emails for an easy year before that or more. He had had the idea for a Red camera for Years before one actually hit the street.

I finally gave up.. It was that bad on delays. I needed a camera then, not one 2 years later. I ended up just giving up on the project and never revisited it.

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