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2 hours ago, Savannah Miller said:

It's not just that. Those cameras don't have PRO codecs internal or pro features that you need on bigger productions.

 C200 lacks timecode, and maybe you can match other cameras if you shoot in RAW, but then your show has to allow for it when everyone wants prores.  

Agreed with you about lacking timecode with the FS5 and C200, but the FS7 (with the XDCA) and the EVA1 both support timecode. And all (except FS5) have SDI outputs and 10bit 4K internal. 

Although yes, I imagine ProRes is a big draw for the UMP (although Kinefinity also does ProRes as well). 


 

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My dear erstwhile member can you please stop attacking John Brawley now. I have long since given up on camera forum arguments so might not be completely up on who is right and who is wrong-evil /

I like the pictures. A lot.  This camera will probably replace the micro cinema camera for me as it’s not much bigger and is much easier to work with.  I didn’t feel as strongly about the 4K

What a shame. Who are these "deep state" BMD insiders that are here pushing an agenda ? Myself and Hook.  Who else ?  What do you guys think, there's a plot and conspiracy ?  You guys don't wat t

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2 minutes ago, John Brawley said:

Only pretty recently I think.

Has been for a while now I believe, as the old KineMAX had ProRes. 

Their newest Kinefinity cameras are going to get ProRes Raw as well (Z Cam E2 is going to get ProRes Raw as well). 

23 minutes ago, John Brawley said:

I'm sure this is heretical, but I also hate the "sensor in a box" model that RED champion and that is aped by Kinifinity. Modular is crap when you're trying to balance something on your shoulder.  Give me a camera designed to be operated, fondled and used by human hands,  not a modular lego / mechano set with adaptors, brackets, machismo styling and nato rail.

Once you set up the Terra (or MAVO) with the KineGrip then I reckon it is quite similar in operation to say a BMPCC/GH5/etc and comfy to be fondled by human hands. (certainly not as bad as a BMD Micro is at first)

 

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Just now, mercer said:

Hmm, if I had to guess, I would have thought you shot the barebones of footage for TV. How many days do you get to shoot an episode? And how many set ups/pages do you shoot in a day on The Resident? Sorry for all the questions, but how often do we get a professional cinematographer around here willing to answer... it’s very appreciated!

No idea on your background Glenn, only on your good taste ; ) But I guess you'd end surprised if you'd look closer LOL ;- )

Anyway, no secrets any good search or learning enterprise or a good school resource even online can lead you to the answers you're looking for.

I don't even know that show...

But, take four minutes (for the full-length), I mean, to end within the screen in the final cut (or pages of script) as average at least!

Narrative shot in one camera setup. No multiple camera where a not-so-well-cared soap opera can range forty/forty five minutes or so (i.e., pages of script to pair up).

Oh well, do not count special projects either ; )) Which can end in a half of that first figure above for example. On the other hand, Raoul Ruiz as for instance was known by reaching twelve to make it happen in a single day.

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22 minutes ago, IronFilm said:

Has been for a while now I believe, as the old KineMAX had ProRes. 

Their newest Kinefinity cameras are going to get ProRes Raw as well (Z Cam E2 is going to get ProRes Raw as well). 

Once you set up the Terra (or MAVO) with the KineGrip then I reckon it is quite similar in operation to say a BMPCC/GH5/etc and comfy to be fondled by human hands. (certainly not as bad as a BMD Micro is at first)

 

Careful. They’re very different cameras. 

A micro is very very small with a native MFT lens. Fits within the palm of my hand.

Thats very different to a box that has to have a monitor fitted (ursa doesn’t) and isn’t there still a few frames lag on the monitor output ?

Were getting into highly subjective personal taste things here. 

The bigger issue really is that it hasn’t really impressed on the very nice pictures front. Not for me anyway.

JB

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Just now, John Brawley said:

(...)

Time is the thing we all struggle most with. Time to light, time to shoot, time to tweak.  

(...)

JB

As matter of fact, this is the real struggle a filmmaker must deal with.

Just now, John Brawley said:

This is known as “the pattern”

(...)

We shoot about 6-10 script pages per day.

(...)

I hadn't read your generous and juicy post before I posted mine. As Glenn @mercer can check by himself now, the numbers are not so far away of each other ; ) That is, to not properly state they really match : ) Your ten script pages mark don't obviously surprise me, even though as above-posted Ruiz is still considered a milestone :- D

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2 hours ago, John Brawley said:

This is known as “the pattern”

....

Time is the thing we all struggle most with. Time to light, time to shoot, time to tweak.  

The pace of TV has a way of “honing” your choices and teaching you to react and trust your instincts. 

Thanks John, informative post.

A couple of questions:

1) If you don't mind me asking, how often does The Pattern you describe finish an episode?  I'm keen to understand shooting ratios etc.  I understand if this info is a bit too sensitive to share, and I understand it's talking about people other than yourself, so no worries if you decline.

2) a bit OT, but the pace of such a schedule reminds me of the you tubers who create daily content (vlogs normally).  Casey Neistat is the oft cited example but many more are similar.  Casey created a 5-15 minute upload every day for something like 500 days straight, including doing everything himself from story design, shooting, editing, colour and export and upload, and the episodes were competently edited with structure, music, B-roll and sometimes FX.  He mentioned it involved editing for 4-9 hours a day.  

Your comments frequently align with these creators, they shoot 1080 for ease of editing, they get colour right in-camera, they have multiple setups, etc, and prioritise story-telling and throughput over other concerns.

My question is - have you seen any impacts to the industry from this segment of high-productivity film-makers?  I'm assuming that before vlogging was a thing very few people even attempted to maintain a pace similar to a professional shooting schedule.

Thanks!

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2 hours ago, John Brawley said:

Don't weep. I'm very kind to sound.

Phew! :-) Good to hear, it makes a massive difference when the DoP (and director, and 1st AD etc) work with sound instead of against sound. 

 

 

2 hours ago, John Brawley said:

I used to be on the other side of that fence.  I had Zaxcom Deva serial number 4 which was lighter than the PD2 I started with. I went to the Zaxcom factory a few times and knew Glenn quite well.  Back in the day I used to hang with the likes of Glen Trew and John Coffee at trade shows and I cursed the day MS stereo was invented for all the BBC shows I worked on.

https://groups.google.com/forum/#!msg/rec.arts.movies.production.sound/_pL641Crbhg/mJPF4mlnDNkJ

So I get it. I used to be that guy that no one talks too. (sound joke)


OH!
WOW!

I had no idea you had one of the first Deva recorders! What a pioneer.

After you gave that RAMPS link I looked around and read a few more:

https://groups.google.com/d/msg/rec.arts.movies.production.sound/IFhNAzhv73k/KfWPgfOTAsYJ

 

That is incredible, I had no idea you used to specialize in being a sound mixer instead, how did you find yourself transitioning from that to now becoming a successful DoP?

Am quite curious as I entered film school with the desire to be a "DoP" (and prior to film my interest had been in photography as a hobby) and in the earliest years I was focused on just the camera department, but a few years ago I decided I'm better off doing more sound work and it has got to the point I now almost exclusively work in the sound department. (maybe only once a month I'll "play at being a DoP' and do a little short film with friends, or film a music artist, or a few episodes of a web series, but that now is the limit of my camera work usually)

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I feel like in TV everybody works fast.

In VFX at least you generally complete the shots as quickly as you can while still adhering to some sort of quality standard, so generally unlike films, nobody is going to A/B your final shots with the original to pixel peep on your images.  As long as it looks right and matches the script, most people are happy that it's done.

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3 hours ago, SR said:

Stealing from Facebook:

36625035_10154822397812168_4020567908542

 

 

36632929_10156413874679882_7816456869420

 

 

Well to be completely fair, if the camera uses EI like all other Blackmagic cameras, then that's the equivalent of 3 stops underexposed shooting at 3200 ISO which is the camera's native.  That's not THAT high as plenty of cameras can recover 3 stops underexposed with those noise levels.

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11 hours ago, John Brawley said:

 

We average about 35 setups or “slates” per day. Have done as high as 60 on Resident. 

 

Thanks for your insight! But what is the definition of a setup? Is it when you change location, change one light, change tripod height/angle/placement, change camera settings? As making 35 light setups a day seems brutal and 35 tripod changes seems very doable. + then we even have not discussed the amount of takes that actors require to land a good performance. (or at least in my experience it takes several takes per shot, but I have not worked with any greatly talented actors either, but I do have seen David Fincher grind 35 takes on hollywood actors as well :) )

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46 minutes ago, zerocool22 said:

Thanks for your insight! But what is the definition of a setup? Is it when you change location, change one light, change tripod height/angle/placement, change camera settings? As making 35 light setups a day seems brutal and 35 tripod changes seems very doable. + then we even have not discussed the amount of takes that actors require to land a good performance. (or at least in my experience it takes several takes per shot, but I have not worked with any greatly talented actors either, but I do have seen David Fincher grind 35 takes on hollywood actors as well :) )

 

A setup is anytime the script supervisor changes the ID on the slate ?

That's a lens change or a substantial change in storytelling shot construction.  On take 1 of a setup, if there's something blocking and screwing up the shot and you have to move the A camera six feet to get around it, then the shot is considered the same shot, you go to take 2 and its the same setup because the intention is the same.  Kind of the same if the lens change is from a 27mm to a 24mm because you're not quite fitting everything in.  

Sometimes though on take 3, the B camera has gotten what they need and you give them a different shot to do so that would generate a new setup and a new ID on the slate. (don't get me started on the differences between US and AU slate ID's.

The lighting is always being tweaked to each CAMERA (not shot) so that's constantly updating in small ways.  I tend to have some go-to ways to light for cross shooting and it's established often on the first setup and then tweaked to each subsequent setup.

Kubrick seems to have the reputation of most number of takes.  

"For The Shining I spent two weeks on the set in Elstree. My scene with Jack Nicholson lasted about eight minutes. We shot it 50 or 60 times, I should think - always in one take. Then Jack Nicholson, Stanley and I would sit down and look at each take on a video. Jack would say, 'That was pretty good, wasn't it, Stanley?' And Stanley would say, 'Yes it was. Now let's do it again'."

 

9 hours ago, IronFilm said:


OH!
WOW!

I had no idea you had one of the first Deva recorders! What a pioneer.

After you gave that RAMPS link I looked around and read a few more:

https://groups.google.com/d/msg/rec.arts.movies.production.sound/IFhNAzhv73k/KfWPgfOTAsYJ

 

That is incredible, I had no idea you used to specialize in being a sound mixer instead, how did you find yourself transitioning from that to now becoming a successful DoP?

Am quite curious as I entered film school with the desire to be a "DoP" (and prior to film my interest had been in photography as a hobby) and in the earliest years I was focused on just the camera department, but a few years ago I decided I'm better off doing more sound work and it has got to the point I now almost exclusively work in the sound department. (maybe only once a month I'll "play at being a DoP' and do a little short film with friends, or film a music artist, or a few episodes of a web series, but that now is the limit of my camera work usually)

I always wanted to be in the camera department.

My first job was working for a camera rental house but the owner was a working DP.  He shot a lot of documentary work and TV promos. I was his full time assistant for nearly 5 years. It was really like going to DP school for 5 years.  But being his assistant meant you had to record sound.  So I learnt to record sound ?

He was by far the biggest single influence on my working style  He taught me the importance of a bedside manner on set, he taught me to pull my own focus when shooting (when necessary) he taught me how to test, how to be hungry, to learn.  He was a technology innovator and a true pioneer. One of the first to embrace HDTV in Australia.  One of the first to buy RED cameras and advocate them.   I wrote about his passing here. https://johnbrawley.wordpress.com/2011/04/17/the-passing-of-john-bowring-acs/

It's never too late to change ?

10 hours ago, kye said:

Thanks John, informative post.

A couple of questions:

1) If you don't mind me asking, how often does The Pattern you describe finish an episode?  I'm keen to understand shooting ratios etc.  I understand if this info is a bit too sensitive to share, and I understand it's talking about people other than yourself, so no worries if you decline.

2) a bit OT, but the pace of such a schedule reminds me of the you tubers who create daily content (vlogs normally).  Casey Neistat is the oft cited example but many more are similar.  Casey created a 5-15 minute upload every day for something like 500 days straight, including doing everything himself from story design, shooting, editing, colour and export and upload, and the episodes were competently edited with structure, music, B-roll and sometimes FX.  He mentioned it involved editing for 4-9 hours a day.  

Your comments frequently align with these creators, they shoot 1080 for ease of editing, they get colour right in-camera, they have multiple setups, etc, and prioritise story-telling and throughput over other concerns.

My question is - have you seen any impacts to the industry from this segment of high-productivity film-makers?  I'm assuming that before vlogging was a thing very few people even attempted to maintain a pace similar to a professional shooting schedule.

Thanks!

I'm not sure what you mean when you ask "finish an episode".  It NEVER goes longer than the number of days.  It's scheduled within an inch of it's life and if the schedule isn't make-able then it's re-written ?

TV drama and Docos are where I've trained in.  The pace is not new.  What's gotten better is the production standards generally.  We've gone from using 2/3" video cameras to S35 sized sensors and cinema style framing and editorial style.  

Streaming services and VOD has lead to a new era of "elevated" TV drama.  It's shot like a movie, it's got MOVIE actors and directors working on it and it's visually told in "movie" style choices.

Except we have to still shoot it as fast. Yeah I know time is always the enemy.

Typically a movie, even a low budget one, aims for 2-3 mins of screen time a day.  TV drama is typically 6-8 mins on location and 7-12 mins in a studio.  I like shooting with more cameras (three full time) because it gets me more shots from the same number of setups.  More shots = more coverage. Simple maths.

Some shows are different.  A show like stranger things shoots an episode every 14 days. They shoot it "one camera" style and this takes longer.  I know some crew on that and they tell me that they never make their days and that the directors on that can pretty much do whatever they want and Netflix don't care much about the show's budget.  But that kind of "auteur" perspective in a TV show is pretty rare and unusual and is only permitted because of the show's great success. Arguably this could be why it's successful too.   Most directors would be fired or never re-hired again if they didn't deliver an ep in their allowed days.

When I look up directors I'm about to work with, I look at how many episodes they've done on a show.  If they've only done one and never gone back, it's a pretty good sign they're going to be....difficult.

I know a great director who started doing TV drama. He loved big architectural wide shots.  We shot a few scenes without ANY close coverage.  I begged him to shoot close up passes "just in case" and he was adamant.  Nope.  If we shoot those shots they'll use them !

He got reamed in the edit when the producers screening happened.  They asked for closeups on his edit and he said he didd't have any.

He's never been employed again by one of Australia's most prolific producers.  If any other producers call him to ask for a reference guess what he's going to tell them.

TV truly is a "producers" medium and these days, most of the producers are really writers.

JB

 

 

 

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11 hours ago, John Brawley said:

He was by far the biggest single influence on my working style  He taught me the importance of a bedside manner on set, he taught me to pull my own focus when shooting (when necessary) he taught me how to test, how to be hungry, to learn.  He was a technology innovator and a true pioneer. One of the first to embrace HDTV in Australia.  One of the first to buy RED cameras and advocate them.   I wrote about his passing here. https://johnbrawley.wordpress.com/2011/04/17/the-passing-of-john-bowring-acs/

Wow. That was a touching read. Thank you. 

 

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