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Panasonic seems to be announcing something "BIG" on December 15

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40 minutes ago, jonpais said:

hmmm... emoticons....must be some newly improved face detection.

Faces have two eyes, expect a dual lens video camera! One shoots black and white low light, the other colour. Images combined in camera!

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The theory that's always made the most sense to me about Panasonic's lack of phase-detect is that Sony, their sensor supplier, has them contractually excluded from it, in order to protect the competing Sony cameras. Olympus is allowed to buy sensors that are nearly identical, but with phase detect enabled, because their cams traditionally don't have much of a video focus, and thus aren't seen as real competitors to the Sonys on the video front (implying the video aspects are indeed a major factor in sales).

Panasonic's statements about DFD being technically superior are just marketing bluster- of course they're not going to admit a weakness in their product, nor are they going to admit that Sony has them by the balls on this. They said similar things about OIS being superior to IBIS, right up until they started including IBIS in their cameras. If your competitors come out with a superior tech, you bluster about your existing tech being better, being proven, being reliable.... until your engineers are able to play catch-up, and then you introduce it with your next line. Marketing 101.

I guarantee once they're able to source sensors elsewhere (TowerJazz?), we'll see phase-detect introduced.

Not sure how realistic it is to wish for Dual-Pixel AF though, as that's Canon's proprietary/patented technology. I doubt they're interested in licensing it to a competitor, at least in cameras. They've licensed it for cellphone cameras because they're never going to compete in that space directly, and the phone market is so massive that even that simple licensing fee is big bucks.

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Well if they are going to be asking north of $2500 for a m43 camera it had better bring it’s a game on most every front. Stripping out features will not earn my interest. When Sony offered both the A7RII and A7SII, I opted for the R, as I like the idea of taking one camera and being able to do printable stills and also capture good quality video. I will be curious to see what this camera offers, but I am skeptical of paying $2500-$3k for m43. At that price a strong case is made for simply sticking with the GH5. That is, unless it is something very special. I’m hoping for the best, but preparing to be underwhelmed.

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Well the Eva is more production friendly and super 35 so that not really for the same audience .

But for my personal use, a camera with 4k 60fps , a good 4.2.2 codec, face detection continuous autofocus and low rolling shutter is everything I will ever need, So I think the next generation camera I will buy will last me much longer since I won t have to make much compromise anymore. Hopefully it will be a a7s3 .

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I think we are lucky if we get 10bit 120p in FHD/2K, but if that's multi aspect I would have no reason to complain. 4K/60p/10bit internally would be badass but I doubt that, too much too soon after the original GH5. Owners would go nuts.

That advanced HDR sounds like a lot more reasonable and "prosumer friendly". They need to sell those HDR TVs somehow, showing off nature docs with over saturated colours and interpolated magic motion on the shopfloor won't cut it now.. they have to give you toys to create content with.

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10 minutes ago, Liszon said:

I think we are lucky if we get 10bit 120p in FHD/2K, but if that's multi aspect I would have no reason to complain. 4K/60p/10bit internally would be badass but I doubt that, too much too soon after the original GH5. Owners would go nuts.

Yeah, they would go nuts... but what would they then do? They would order the new camera. In any case, it seems plausible that we will get fewer MP in this new model. If that is the case we would lose open-gate, 6k photo mode and other goodies. Could we expect a softer image, due to less down sampling? So enough holes will be left to warrant another camera. 

I would add this as a B-cam for dynamic range and low-light. But the lower MP count would mean I would be stuck without these feature when on vacation, because I might want to take a few pictures. And if any of those pictures are “special”, well who knows, I might want to print them?

Low light is useful some of the time... as is HDR, but decent resolution is useful far more often in my use case. This might play out to be the A7RII vs A7SII all over again. My pick was the R.

And as for DPAF, well I miss it dearly every time I use the GH5. My smartphone has it... my Canon has it, and Panasonic NEEDS to have something like this in their next camera. Once you have used it, you will no longer make, frankly stupid arguments for not needing or wanting it. Let see how easily you maintain focus with a shallow depth of field on a gimbal without it. This is 2017, good AF is not a luxury... it should be a standard feature on all flagship cameras. Nuff said!

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1 hour ago, DBounce said:

And as for DPAF, well I miss it dearly every time I use the GH5. My smartphone has it... my Canon has it, and Panasonic NEEDS to have something like this in their next camera. Once you have used it, you will no longer make, frankly stupid arguments for not needing or wanting it. Let see how easily you maintain focus with a shallow depth of field on a gimbal without it. This is 2017, good AF is not a luxury... it should be a standard feature on all flagship cameras. Nuff said!

 

PRECISELY. 

But well, at least if they could put a PHASE DETECTION AF like on the Sony A7RIII/A9 I would be happy. That would be much better than their shitty CDAF. 
Dual Pixel AF of course would be the best. But honestly A9 AF on gimbal is completely usable, unlike GH5 AF which is the deal breaker on this camera for me. 

If the GH5s is a GH5 with good video AF this is all I ask and need. If they bring 4K120fps and more well I will definitely TAKE it, but hopefully they don't sell that for $5K.

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"Dynamic Range" is such a misused phrase.  It's the MacGuffin of filmmaker dreams and fantasy.  When someone writes the camera could have 15+ stops of DR my head explodes.  Measured how?  I'll try another way to explain how I see it.  In an 8-bit DATA space (which Panasonic is probably shotgun married to in its electronics), you only have 16 million color values.  If you shoot in 6 stops, you have 16/6=2.6 million colors.  If you shoot in 15 stops you have 1 million colors.  The data "word"/bit size is what sets the maximum colors you can capture.  So after the camera comes out various camera experts will show on YouTube/Vimeo how you can see 15 white/gray bars, each exposed 1 stop away from the other.  So yes, if you're shooting white bars you have 15 stops of dynamic range.  However, change each bar to an individual color chart and you will see banding because you can't spread color out in 15 stops in 8 bit without seeing it in many situations.  Again, you want 2.6 million colors at each stop, or 1 million?  10bit full color compressed video is not the same as 10bit single-channel RAW, not even close.  Arggggghhh!

What's so mystifying to me--the million dollar question--is why Panasonic can't offer RAW.  A GH5 with RAW output would be a game changer.  I'd buy one immediately! Anyone?  As for the focus stuff.  I agree with the above.  Sony and Canon invested in low-level tech that can't be done without changing manufacturing.  No one wants to hear this, but Panasonic is married to the wrong sensor size.  Might have been one of the points @Don Kotlos was trying to make.  Yes, there are many tricks that can be done to improve the image.  But GROSS Dynamic Range?  As they say in cars, "there's no replacement for displacement" :)  If Canon can get 4K on its consumer cameras Panasonic will be in very serious trouble.  That's my thoughts on their desire to keep announcing.

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Man, if a new GH5 has a much better AF technology than the current GH5, I know a lot of people that will become very angry! I don't believe it will.

What if it has the EVA sensor? As of the size and weight, the GH5 is almost like a dSLR, not at all a small and light mirrorless camera, so there is no problem to fit a bigger sensor there. and

What if it isn't a Sony sensor? That TowerJazz company that the new Nikon sensor is out from, belongs 48% to Panasonic.

What if isn't even a camera? Everything about it is suspicious. You have a killer video camera in the form of a dSLR/Mirrorless hybrid that in my country came in June, and the EVA arrived couple of weeks ago, I am not even sure if they have even sell one here. Plus, what else can you put on a more expensive GH5? and if indeed there is one coming, with a few more extra features, ain't it going to hurt EVA sales?

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10 minutes ago, maxotics said:

"Dynamic Range" is such a misused phrase.  It's the MacGuffin of filmmaker dreams and fantasy.  When someone writes the camera could have 15+ stops of DR my head explodes.  Measured how?  I'll try another way to explain how I see it.  In an 8-bit DATA space (which Panasonic is probably shotgun married to in its electronics), you only have 16 million color values.  If you shoot in 6 stops, you have 16/6=2.6 million colors.  If you shoot in 15 stops you have 1 million colors.  The data "word"/bit size is what sets the maximum colors you can capture.  So after the camera comes out various camera experts will show on YouTube/Vimeo how you can see 15 white/gray bars, each exposed 1 stop away from the other.  So yes, if you're shooting white bars you have 15 stops of dynamic range.  However, change each bar to an individual color chart and you will see banding because you can't spread color out in 15 stops in 8 bit without seeing it in many situations.  Again, you want 2.6 million colors at each stop, or 1 million?  10bit full color compressed video is not the same as 10bit single-channel RAW, not even close.  Arggggghhh!

What's so mystifying to me--the million dollar question--is why Panasonic can't offer RAW.  A GH5 with RAW output would be a game changer.  Anyone?  As for the focus stuff.  I agree with the above.  Sony and Canon invested in low-level tech that can't be done without changing manufacturing.  No one wants to hear this, but Panasonic is married to the wrong sensor size.  Might have been one of the points @Don Kotlos was trying to make.  Yes, there are many tricks that can be done to improve the image.  But GROSS Dynamic Range.  As they say in cars, "there's no replacement for displacement" :)  If Canon puts 4K on its consumer cameras Panasonic will be in very serious trouble.  That's me "comment"

Help me with this Max. 

To my knowledge you get your 16 million color values (actually 16.8 million) by using 256 shades (2 to the 8th power) for each of the primary colors, RGB. So 256x256x256 = 16,777,216. And then yes, 16.8/15 yields 1.1 million.

However, using that same process but with 10 bit in which each channel has 1024 shades or values -- 1024x1024x1024 -- equals over a billion (1,073,741,824). And 1billion/15 yields 71.5 million, which is obviously much greater than the 2.6 million colors of 6 stops 8 bit footage, even when compressed. 

So yes, 15 stops of DR with 10 bit files and over 71 million colors is a good thing right?

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What is this love for EVA and hurting its sales, argument?

As a consumer... we all should be rejoicing.... not be balancing Panasonic's accounts. Just saying.

But for arguments sake...

May be, the EVA isn't getting the reception that they supposed that it would get?

Now, knowing that... would you rather someone else cannibalize it and lose money.... or would you (yourself) rather cannibalize it and even it out or make money?

 

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I think any possible GH5S actually compliments the EVA1 very well when you think about the type of people buying the EVA1.

Anyway, new technology usually comes to the smaller cameras first and it is the case yet again here with Quad Bayer HDR.

The EVA1 is designed to be a solid work tool, to please established pro videographers and it does so.

The GH5S is a bit more 'wow' and would be a superb second camera for EVA1 owners.

Plus it speaks far more to me, as I still prefer the tiny mirrorless cameras to 'traditional' form factor cinema cameras, even ones as small as the EVA1 or C300.

By the way, if the rumors are true, I think this camera will be a breakthrough in dynamic range on ANY stills / mirrorless / DSLR.

There will be a TON of photographers using the HDR mode on this sensor, believe me.

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37 minutes ago, Jonesy Jones said:

However, using that same process but with 10 bit in which each channel has 1024 shades or values -- 1024x1024x1024 -- equals over a billion (1,073,741,824). And 1billion/15 yields 71.5 million, which is obviously much greater than the 2.6 million colors of 6 stops 8 bit footage, even when compressed. 

Hi Jonesy, I was just taking a shower thinking I should do a video on this subject.  I'm still not clear on it all, but this is my current understanding from my experiments with the Sony X70 that has both 8 and 10bit.  

Theoretically, what you say is correct IF the 10bit value ends up in a 10bit space.  So when I shot 10bit on the Sony X70 I expected to see a big increase in DR.  I detected none.  Why?  I haven't seen any big real DR improvement of 10bit anywhere on the Internet.  Just a lot of marketing "you'll see" type of stuff. 

Excuse me if this is confusing.  I'm still trying to figure it out in my head.

When you use RAW values you'd have 1024 per channel, as you say, so there's a big difference between 256 at the stop of 8bit, and 1024, right?  That's the way I see it too.  So let's say we have 3 RGB values of 100, 256 and 1024 so multiplied we have 26,214,400.  Can we fit this in a 10bit space?  Absolutely, IF we're saving CHANNEL data as 10bits.  And when I've shot some limited Magic Lantern at 12bit I DO SEE a marked improvement over 8bit H.264.

So when I looked at the 8bit vs 10bit files from the X70 they were roughly the same file size, but I did see a difference in banding (but I had to super pixel peep).   So how could it really be 10bit?  And if it isn't really 10bit, what is it?

My guess is that it is really 8bit with an extra couple of bits added to the full color data.  So it really isn't 10bit, it's more like 26bit full color (24bit plus 2 bits).  That would explain why the colors would band less on close inspection.  There is more precision between shades.  

Time will tell if I'm wrong, but so far I believe everyone has fallen for a lot of marketing hype, nonsense.  Not surprising to me, if you read my other posts few understand DR properly ;)  Panasonic loves to muddy the water with all manner of CODECs and bit-rate-mumbo-jumbo.  So that's my take so far.  It's not 10bit acquisition.  It's more like 8.1 bit display ;) 

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