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Panasonic seems to be announcing something "BIG" on December 15

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So we have the GH5 is a hybrid and the G9 is the stills orientated then the GH5s could well be even more video orientated. It's interesting for sure and would make a nice addition to the family. 

I love the GH5 as is it ticks every box for my bay to day shoots and then some. The one issue I have is just a firmware fix. 

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The per pixel dynamic range is defined as the log of the ratio of the maximum signal (until saturation) to the total noise (Shot noise + dark noise):

5a1c2fa4a9c37_EMVA1288Infographiconvalues.thumb.PNG.1fac2634ad9ca3a0a9bddfbdd54a5c29.PNG

The signal which is the number of photons is proportional to the pixel area, whereas the shot noise is proportional to the square root of the number of photons. 

That is why the signal-to-noise ratio, and the dynamic range, changes with pixel size - the larger the pixels, the higher their dynamic range (everything else being equal of course).

Now the dynamic range of the whole sensor can also depend on other things. For example one potential chip that could be in the GH5s can change the integration times between nearby pixels:

5a1c30e74d117_ScreenShot2017-11-27at9_34_10AM.png.caccceb86d06949fad923d8f5f69c4dc.png

 

 

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34 minutes ago, Don Kotlos said:

The per pixel dynamic range is defined as the log of the ratio of the maximum signal (until saturation) to the total noise (Shot noise + dark noise):

5a1c2fa4a9c37_EMVA1288Infographiconvalues.thumb.PNG.1fac2634ad9ca3a0a9bddfbdd54a5c29.PNG

The signal which is the number of photons is proportional to the pixel area, whereas the shot noise is proportional to the square root of the number of photons. 

That is why the signal-to-noise ratio, and the dynamic range, changes with pixel size - the larger the pixels, the higher their dynamic range (everything else being equal of course).

Now the dynamic range of the whole sensor can also depend on other things. For example one potential chip that could be in the GH5s can change the integration times between nearby pixels:

5a1c30e74d117_ScreenShot2017-11-27at9_34_10AM.png.caccceb86d06949fad923d8f5f69c4dc.png

 

 

According to this article in Cinema5D, when comparing the DR of the Sony A7RII to the A7Sii the R variant showed a 1/2 stop improvement. When using S-Log 3 on the A7SII it managed to gain an half stop, so it tied the A7RII in DR. In the end, our best hope for improved DR would really be a different senor technology, not merely larger pixels.

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27 minutes ago, DBounce said:

In the end, our best hope for improved DR would really be a different senor technology, not merely larger pixels.

Sure but those "merely larger pixels" gave A7sII a 2 stop advantage in low light dynamic range. 

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4 minutes ago, Don Kotlos said:

Sure but those "merely larger pixels" gave A7sII a 2 stop advantage in low light dynamic range. 

Few would argue that the A7SII would not have better low-light performance. For myself I am more concerned with dynamic range when dealing with very bright backgrounds or areas in the picture and a subject that need to be exposed correctly. This often results in overexposing  the highlights. The article also states that rolling shutter is worst on the A7SII, so another trade off. I don’t think you are hoping for this older tech over the much improved organic sensor are you?

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23 minutes ago, DBounce said:

Few would argue that the A7SII would not have better low-light performance. For myself I am more concerned with dynamic range when dealing with very bright backgrounds or areas in the picture and a subject that need to be exposed correctly. This often results in overexposing  the highlights. The article also states that rolling shutter is worst on the A7SII, so another trade off. I don’t think you are hoping for this older tech over the much improved organic sensor are you?

Of course not. I am not sure where you got that impression. I was just explaining how bigger pixels affect dynamic range.

2 hours ago, DBounce said:

No sure why bigger but fewer pixels would increase dynamic range? 

 

Sensor technology (e.g. BSI), clever readout (different integration times) , or many other things can help as well. 

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23 minutes ago, Don Kotlos said:

Of course not. I am not sure where you got that impression. I was just explaining how bigger pixels affect dynamic range.

 

Sensor technology (e.g. BSI), clever readout (different integration times) , or many other things can help as well. 

I think that is my point. I am hoping to see some improvement in the sensor tech rather than merely decreasing pixel count. Ideally, I would prefer to keep the pixel count the same, or even increase them, if it could be done while increasing both ISO performance and DR. 

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@DaveAltizer no you can't Dave! It seems like it isn't for this generation of Pana cameras.

So in their line up, they will have a video centric camera, and then a more video centric camera?! Too much fragmentation. The new GH5s, or whatever that is, must be a lot better than the GH5 to make any sense, and that is a 3000$ price point, probably e-ND or something similar, external RAW, probably IBIS and maybe a variable sensor.

I am with the guys above, Dual Pixel AF is too great and too modern, for not to have on a camera  that will take you to the next decade.

 

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1 hour ago, DaveAltizer said:

Can we please just have DPAF. Please God that’s all I want lol

If Neumann was contracted to make a film with a new camera, wouldn't he be asked to highlight the new features? Seeing as how he shot with a completely manual anamorphic prime, I can't see there being new autofocus features. 

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Hypothetically, even if I had access to something that other people don't, I wouldn't utilize AF so my opinion wouldn't be of much use anyways.

Generally, it seems companies spread out "feature showcasing" across the videos.  For instance, "Beyond the Grid" was supposed to show off the 10bit and the IBIS (specifically), so the grading was a little more aggressive and some shots were handheld at 60fps etc.  They didn't ask us to highlight the 4K60, that was someone else's job.

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59 minutes ago, Kisaha said:

@DaveAltizer no you can't Dave! It seems like it isn't for this generation of Pana cameras.

So in their line up, they will have a video centric camera, and then a more video centric camera?! Too much fragmentation. The new GH5s, or whatever that is, must be a lot better than the GH5 to make any sense, and that is a 3000$ price point, probably e-ND or something similar, external RAW, probably IBIS and maybe a variable sensor.

I am with the guys above, Dual Pixel AF is too great and too modern, for not to have on a camera  that will take you to the next decade.

 

How's the AF with Blackmagic, RED, ARRI, etc tho?

Brings it back to the point of IBIS once again. Is this supposed to be a cinema camera lite? Or is it more of a 'does-it-all' type of shindig? Or... a mini Sony FS/Canon C event capable device?

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@Cinegain and 100 years ago we had no sound at all, and look at us now! AF is the big thing right now, Canon played it right, when others invested on other exotic features, bitrates and other stuff, Canon invested on color science and AF capabilities.

I am not big on IBIS (that is written on other posts here), I am just trying to understand what such a camera should have to make it a worthy upgrade to a rather new and full of features video orientated camera (GH5) from the same company and a similar form factor. GH5 "does it all", and probably more, but it ain't dual pixel, if anyone has worked with Canon's technology knows what I am talking about. I do not believe that a new Panasonic camera of 3000$ could render the Reds and the Arris of this world useless, but Blackmagic? Yes, the cheaper models at least, I am not sure why BM is in the same sentence with Red and Arri.

GH5 is a mini Sony/Canon C already, but Canon has amazing, usable, touch focus. It is a game changer, no one is close, really. Everything is welcomed though, Panasonic seriously pushes the envelope, this is only good for the industry and us. I am so curious about this "BIG" announcement, didn't see it coming, and I am not sure what is the point now that GH5 could sold a few thousands Christmas cameras. That is an announcement for next year, but I will be waiting for it eagerly.

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I'm generally of belief that they've taken their turn and are too stubborn to turn around and drive the other way again. They're going with their depth from de-focus system... which needs to hunt around in order to analyze the change in depth character, in turn telling the camera something about the focus, which just causes unnecessary mechanical and processing strain (at the cost of wear & tear, battery life, speed/smoothness, etc). If they could pull that off quick enough to not interfere with the actual recordings, that's one thing, but in my opinion it might just be one of the most inefficient ways to make an AF system operate ever to start with anyways, so to me it doesn't even make sense to pursue the mapping of lens characteristics to make depth and focus assumptions on, other than perhaps assisting an otherwise already existing system (and then I don't mean a constrast based one). But you know... concerning AF Panasonic seems to live in their own bubble. And the thing about bubbles... they float around and don't change a whole lot... the only thing it does is pop in due time...

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That was very deep, especially for a focusing system!

I believe they do not have the funds to compete with everyone and everything; companies/people have to make decisions, they do not have infinite funds. Sony seems to play all in, but they have an advantage as they are controlling the sensor market (I am guessing they take a heavy discount on acquiring their sensors), so they have the luxury to invest on other things heavily - especially AF, but you can see they are not perfect either, if you compare their latest crop body a6500 with the 2014 NX1 it has worst monitors, more heat inside the camera, worst high speed and 1080p quality, worst battery life, no touch screen menu and operating system, no such protection from elements etc They are going around the same, not very good in my opinion, amateurish body for half a decade already, they just invested on different things.

Also, 3 new top tier cameras on a year cycle?! That, is, no, good.

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1 hour ago, Neumann Films said:

Hypothetically, even if I had access to something that other people don't, I wouldn't utilize AF so my opinion wouldn't be of much use anyways.

Generally, it seems companies spread out "feature showcasing" across the videos.  For instance, "Beyond the Grid" was supposed to show off the 10bit and the IBIS (specifically), so the grading was a little more aggressive and some shots were handheld at 60fps etc.  They didn't ask us to highlight the 4K60, that was someone else's job.

The fact that Pana did not asked you to highlight the AF feature does not mean you do not know if this new GH5 has a Phase Detection Autofocus ;)

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1 hour ago, wolf33d said:

The fact that Pana did not asked you to highlight the AF feature does not mean you do not know if this new GH5 has a Phase Detection Autofocus ;)

Everything is a rumor at this point.  Who said it's a camera?  A rumor site? I would take it all with a grain of salt until something official is announced. 😊

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