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“The Middle Path”: A Lumix GH5s Short

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On 11/29/2017 at 4:29 AM, Neumann Films said:

Me thinks you guys are looking for the wrong things here.  It's mildly comical 😂

GH5s - as in s35? JVC has already done a s35 sensor with a m43 mount - that's assuming the helicopter pic is the new camera (and not just a button add-on to a GH5 to make hitting rec easier) since it sporting what looks like the 8-18mm lens.

I can't take credit for that one as it was mentioned earlier in one of these threads. Buuuuut Panasonic could be looking at recouping costs of developing that sensor by placing it in a hybrid body. Though the $2500 price speculation seems unlikely if that were the case. With a larger sensor you get more DR and the much loved multi aspect possibilities.

What if the GH5s had the Varicam LT sensor and came in at say ... $4999? A C1/200/FS5 killa?

Fun to speculate.

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8 hours ago, Trek of Joy said:

GH5s - as in s35? JVC has already done a s35 sensor with a m43 mount - that's assuming the helicopter pic is the new camera (and not just a button add-on to a GH5 to make hitting rec easier) since it sporting what looks like the 8-18mm lens.

I can't take credit for that one as it was mentioned earlier in one of these threads. Buuuuut Panasonic could be looking at recouping costs of developing that sensor by placing it in a hybrid body. Though the $2500 price speculation seems unlikely if that were the case. With a larger sensor you get more DR and the much loved multi aspect possibilities.

What if the GH5s had the Varicam LT sensor and came in at say ... $4999? A C1/200/FS5 killa?

Fun to speculate.

no

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EVERYTHING WE KNOW AND CAN ASSUME ABOUT THE GH5(s).

  • On Nov 6 @Neumann Films posted in the Panasonic GH5 - all is revealed thread with one of his infamous cryptic posts about something NEW coming and to keep an eye on the thread in the coming weeks. I think its safe to assume that since this was posted in the GH5 thread, this "new" thing is GH5 related. In other words, its not a G9 or EVA2 or whatever, it's a GH5 something, but yet required a new thread. Could it be a GH5s?
    • Is there any hard evidence for the GH5s title? On Nov 22 here at EOSHD @jase here and in another thread @PannySVHS here speculated about a GH5s. 3 days later a rumor surfaced on Photorumors about the GH5s, and then again a day later on Nov 26 43srumors claimed that Panasonic will be releasing GH5s with ultra low light sensitivity as well as Panasonic breaking up their flagship line similar to Sony's line-up. Is it possible these rumor sites are scavenging EOSHD threads for content? The point being that this GH5s title appeared first (as far as I can tell) here in the EOSHD forum, then on the rumor sites, and not the other way around (the rumor sites even admit uncertainty on the name). So I wouldn't count on it being called the GH5s. Personally I like GH5X. Your guess is as good as mine.
  • On Nov 8 Neumannfilms released a vlog (go to 3:05) of Luke unboxing what sure looks like an unmarked camera box.  
  • On Nov 21 Luke stated "Different cameras do different things. Sony cameras have the low light capability and that is one of their main calling cards.  The GH5 is more "all around" in my opinion." Notice the italics Luke used in that statement and keep in mind his fondness for giving clues. "Different cameras" and "low light". Could this mean that this new something is in fact a "different" camera and that it has improved low light capabilities? 
    • It also seems reasonable to assume that since the GH5 is more "all around", this newer camera will be more video centric.
  • On Nov 22 Luke began this new thread titled "The Middle Path" A ***** **** Short
    • Again, assuming this is another clue, what could "Middle Path" represent? Some have suggested the new something is a firmware update, yet that would have to be one heck of an update to be called a middle path. Could it be a codec... like the missing "middle" codec of the C200? Maybe. But the GH5 already has a better "middle" codec than the C200. So I don't think that's it either. Once again, unless Luke's short film has something to do with Gandalf and the Hobbits of Middle Earth, this hint leads me to assume this "Middle Path" is a new camera priced and featured somewhere in between the GH5 and EVA1, and hopefully not priced right in the middle :). 
    • Note: as mentioned earlier, @PannySVHS quickly surmised that the ***** **** could in fact stand for "Lumix GH5s". Sounds good to me. Who knows.
  • On Nov 22 and then again on Nov 24, 43rumors claimed that there was a "BIG" product announcement coming in December, specifically Dec 15. The thing is, there is no official word of this announcement from Panasonic. Isn't that weird? I mean, we know something new is coming, but we have no word at all from Panasonic. I have no reason to doubt the December 15 date, but we're less than 2 weeks away and still no word from Panasonic. Hmmm...
  • On Nov 23 Luke said in his Instagram "Giving thanks for lenses that cost 1,524.8% more than your camera." Now I thought this was weird that he'd be so specific, to the decimal. I began to do some research on the cost of the lens he was using, but then I got sidetracked, fortunately Max Yuryev did not. If you take the cost of the Arri anamorphic lens that Luke rented for his short film "The Middle Path", which is $38,120 on B&H, and divide it by 1,524.8% you'll get 2,500 (or multiply 2500 by 1524.8 and you'll get 38120). Seems like this camera is going to cost $2,500. 
    • Also of interest, Luke said something similar on the same day here on this forum. It was similar, but not an exact quote, so it was not a copy and paste. However, the percentage was identical. 1,524.8%. This was not a random number off the top of his head. That number is meaningful.
  • On Nov 27 Luke said on this forum that "Everything is a rumor at this point. Who said it's a camera? A rumor site? I would take it all with a grain of salt until something official is announced. 😊" Wait, does this mean Luke is saying it's not a camera? Or is he merely suggesting that we manage expectations? I suspect the latter.
  • On Nov 28 @Andrew Reid wrote an article about what the GH5s could be. His take was based less on rumors and more on a new sensor Sony has developed that could very well be implemented in a new GH5 series camera. In the video that I referenced earlier by Max Yuryev, he discussed the possibilities from this new sensor as well. And as compelling and intriguing as 4K 120 fps, dual ISO, low light, better auto focus, and much greater DR is, there is one interesting issue.... resolution.
    • A quick look through this very thread will reveal 4 images Luke has shared from his short film. If you download those images you'll notice that 2 of them are 3328x1248, 1 is 3840x1440, and 1 is 6656x2496. How this is relevant is that the supposed new sensor is 4168x2824. Now it's possible Luke up or down rezed randomly to end up with those resolutions, but I seriously doubt it. Here's why.
    • The full open gate of the current GH5 is 4992x3744. Using a 2x anamorphic lens (which Luke is using) would give you 9984x3744. Some simple math will reveal that the largest and smallest of the images Luke has shared are exact simple multiples of the current GH5 open gate. The largest being exactly a 1/3 decrease (6656x2496), and the smallest being exactly a 2/3 decrease (3328x1248). I SIMPLY CANNOT SEE THIS BEING A MERE COINCIDENCE. It also explains why the images look so clean... they are being down sampled from a much larger image. As for the 4th image, I can see no mathematical reason for it's dimensions other than perhaps Luke just wanted to see what his image looked like once it was down rezed to a standard UHD TV screen, since that is the exact horizontal width. EDIT: Even though the above could be correct, I have realized there is a much more simple interpretation of the numbers. So, the GH5 has a 400 mbps ALL-I anamorphic mode that shoots at 3328x2496. With a 2x anamorphic lens, this will give you exactly Luke's larger res image of 6656x2496. So I think that image was entirely untouched as far a resolution goes. The smaller images are EXACTLY half that, so probably just a simple 50% resolution decrease on Luke's end. And the other image bears no simple straightforward mathematical factor to any of the sensor resolutions, so I'm inclined to still believe my original thought that Luke just down sampled it to the horizontal resolution on a UHD monitor, which it is exactly. Bottom line, I believe this new camera carries either the same sensor as the current GH5, or a new iteration of it. 
  • On Nov 29 @DBounce posted some photos of Casey Neistat holding/using a camera that may be the GH5(s). In the photos it seems as though there could be a red ring around the dial, which obviously the current GH5 does not have, but the new G9 does. Perhaps this is the trend on new Panasonic cameras? The photos are honestly quite convincing. Seeing as how Casey has recently switched to a GH5 it makes sense that he'd also get his hands on a prototype. And there is yet another tidbit that supports this.
    • On Nov 27 I had made the argument that since Luke used a manual focus lens for his film, and Panasonic was contracting him to highlight it's features, there must not be any new auto focus features to this new camera. Luke responded by admitting that on the GH5 product launch, he was only contracted to highlight 1 or 2 new features, but there were other features to highlight, but "that was someone else's job." In the case of this new camera, that someone else could be Casey, who would obviously make an ideal candidate to highlight an improved autofocus system. 

IN CONCLUSION I BELIEVE

  • The new product is a new camera. Not a firmware update. From the unmarked camera unboxing, to the middle path, to the photos of Casey Neistat, and more, there is too much evidence that supports this being a new camera.
  • The new camera will cost $2500. The multiple uses of 1,524.8% are not a coincidence. This is in line with the cryptic title "The Middle Path" and is itself further evidence of this being a new camera.
  • The new camera will have identical open gate resolution to the current GH5. I realize this flies directly in the face of all the rumors and sensor talk of bigger but fewer pixels, but I simply cannot get past the fact that the one guy we KNOW has the new product is posting images that are dead on exact multiples of the current open gate resolution. 
  • The new camera is in the GH5 family, but who knows what it's called. All the rumors agree on it being a GH5 something, and Luke beginning discussion of it in an old GH5 thread supports that.
  • The new camera will be more video centric with improved video features. My first guess would be improved low light, or maybe dual ISO. If Casey does in fact have a prototype then I'd also say improved video auto focus would be in there too. Beyond that we're left to just speculate. Could be improved IBIS (or maybe anamorphic IBIS). Better audio. Magnification while shooting. More DR. Improved color. Man I'd love false color. 

ADDITIONAL THOUGHTS

  • Could there be more than 1 camera or product being released? Perhaps the camera Luke has is not the same as the one Casey has. One for cinema? One for vloggers?
  • The images Luke is posting are stunning. Maybe they are simply the result of an ultra nice lens and Luke's talent. But something tells me these images are richer than the ones that come out of my GH5. Do we dare say RAW? But how would greater than 4K RAW be recorded internally in a GH5? Never once did I see an external recorder in Luke's bts.
  • Sorry if this is stupid, but I can't get it out of my head. In every single instance where Luke is shooting, the Panasonic DMW-XLR1 XLR Microphone Adapter is attached to the camera. Every time. And only once is there a mic plugged in. Could this observation answer the questions to the previous two bullets? Preposterous.

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1 hour ago, Jonesy Jones said:

EVERYTHING WE KNOW AND CAN ASSUME ABOUT THE GH5(s).

  • On Nov 6 @Neumann Films posted in the Panasonic GH5 - all is revealed thread with one of his infamous cryptic posts about something NEW coming and to keep an eye on the thread in the coming weeks. I think its safe to assume that since this was posted in the GH5 thread, this "new" thing is GH5 related. In other words, its not a G9 or EVA2 or whatever, it's a GH5 something, but yet required a new thread. Could it be a GH5s?
    • Is there any hard evidence for the GH5s title? On Nov 22 here at EOSHD @jase here and in another thread @PannySVHS here speculated about a GH5s. 3 days later a rumor surfaced on Photorumors about the GH5s, and then again a day later on Nov 26 43srumors claimed that Panasonic will be releasing GH5s with ultra low light sensitivity as well as Panasonic breaking up their flagship line similar to Sony's line-up. Is it possible these rumor sites are scavenging EOSHD threads for content? The point being that this GH5s title appeared first (as far as I can tell) here in the EOSHD forum, then on the rumor sites, and not the other way around (the rumor sites even admit uncertainty on the name). So I wouldn't count on it being called the GH5s. Personally I like GH5X. Your guess is as good as mine.
  • On Nov 8 Neumannfilms released a vlog (go to 3:05) of Luke unboxing what sure looks like an unmarked camera box.  
  • On Nov 21 Luke stated "Different cameras do different things. Sony cameras have the low light capability and that is one of their main calling cards.  The GH5 is more "all around" in my opinion." Notice the italics Luke used in that statement and keep in mind his fondness for giving clues. "Different cameras" and "low light". Could this mean that this new something is in fact a "different" camera and that it has improved low light capabilities? 
    • It also seems reasonable to assume that since the GH5 is more "all around", this newer camera will be more video centric.
  • On Nov 22 Luke began this new thread titled "The Middle Path" A ***** **** Short
    • Again, assuming this is another clue, what could "Middle Path" represent? Some have suggested the new something is a firmware update, yet that would have to be one heck of an update to be called a middle path. Could it be a codec... like the missing "middle" codec of the C200? Maybe. But the GH5 already has a better "middle" codec than the C200. So I don't think that's it either. Once again, unless Luke's short film has something to do with Gandalf and the Hobbits of Middle Earth, this hint leads me to assume this "Middle Path" is a new camera priced and featured somewhere in between the GH5 and EVA1, and hopefully not priced right in the middle :). 
    • Note: as mentioned earlier, @PannySVHS quickly surmised that the ***** **** could in fact stand for "Lumix GH5s". Sounds good to me. Who knows.
  • On Nov 22 and then again on Nov 24, 43rumors claimed that there was a "BIG" product announcement coming in December, specifically Dec 15. The thing is, there is no official word of this announcement from Panasonic. Isn't that weird? I mean, we know something new is coming, but we have no word at all from Panasonic. I have no reason to doubt the December 15 date, but we're less than 2 weeks away and still no word from Panasonic. Hmmm...
  • On Nov 23 Luke said in his Instagram "Giving thanks for lenses that cost 1,524.8% more than your camera." Now I thought this was weird that he'd be so specific, to the decimal. I began to do some research on the cost of the lens he was using, but then I got sidetracked, fortunately Max Yuryev did not. If you take the cost of the Arri anamorphic lens that Luke rented for his short film "The Middle Path", which is $38,120 on B&H, and divide it by 1,524.8% you'll get 2,500 (or multiply 2500 by 1524.8 and you'll get 38120). Seems like this camera is going to cost $2,500. 
    • Also of interest, Luke said something similar on the same day here on this forum. It was similar, but not an exact quote, so it was not a copy and paste. However, the percentage was identical. 1,524.8%. This was not a random number off the top of his head. That number is meaningful.
  • On Nov 27 Luke said on this forum that "Everything is a rumor at this point. Who said it's a camera? A rumor site? I would take it all with a grain of salt until something official is announced. 😊" Wait, does this mean Luke is saying it's not a camera? Or is he merely suggesting that we manage expectations? I suspect the latter.
  • On Nov 28 @Andrew Reid wrote an article about what the GH5s could be. His take was based less on rumors and more on a new sensor Sony has developed that could very well be implemented in a new GH5 series camera. In the video that I referenced earlier by Max Yuryev, he discussed the possibilities from this new sensor as well. And as compelling and intriguing as 4K 120 fps, dual ISO, low light, better auto focus, and much greater DR is, there is one interesting issue.... resolution.
    • A quick look through this very thread will reveal 4 images Luke has shared from his short film. If you download those images you'll notice that 2 of them are 3328x1248, 1 is 3840x1440, and 1 is 6656x2496. How this is relevant is that the supposed new sensor is 4168x2824. Now it's possible Luke up or down rezed randomly to end up with those resolutions, but I seriously doubt it. Here's why.
    • The full open gate of the current GH5 is 4992x3744. Using a 2x anamorphic lens (which Luke is using) would give you 9984x3744. Some simple math will reveal that the largest and smallest of the images Luke has shared are exact simple multiples of the current GH5 open gate. The largest being exactly a 1/3 decrease (6656x2496), and the smallest being exactly a 2/3 decrease (3328x1248). I SIMPLY CANNOT SEE THIS BEING A MERE COINCIDENCE. It also explains why the images look so clean... they are being down sampled from a much larger image. As for the 4th image, I can see no mathematical reason for it's dimensions other than perhaps Luke just wanted to see what his image looked like once it was down rezed to a standard UHD TV screen, since that is the exact horizontal width.
  • On Nov 29 @DBounce posted some photos of Casey Neistat holding/using a camera that may be the GH5(s). In the photos it seems as though there could be a red ring around the dial, which obviously the current GH5 does not have, but the new G9 does. Perhaps this is the trend on new Panasonic cameras? The photos are honestly quite convincing. Seeing as how Casey has recently switched to a GH5 it makes sense that he'd also get his hands on a prototype. And there is yet another tidbit that supports this.
    • On Nov 27 I had made the argument that since Luke used a manual focus lens for his film, and Panasonic was contracting him to highlight it's features, there must not be any new auto focus features to this new camera. Luke responded by admitting that on the GH5 product launch, he was only contracted to highlight 1 or 2 new features, but there were other features to highlight, but "that was someone else's job." In the case of this new camera, that someone else could be Casey, who would obviously make an ideal candidate to highlight an improved autofocus system. 

IN CONCLUSION I BELIEVE

  • The new product is a new camera. Not a firmware update. From the unmarked camera unboxing, to the middle path, to the photos of Casey Neistat, and more, there is too much evidence that supports this being a new camera.
  • The new camera will cost $2500. The multiple uses of 1,524.8% are not a coincidence. This is in line with the cryptic title "The Middle Path" and is itself further evidence of this being a new camera.
  • The new camera will have identical open gate resolution to the current GH5. I realize this flies directly in the face of all the rumors and sensor talk of bigger but fewer pixels, but I simply cannot get past the fact that the one guy we KNOW has the new product is posting images that are dead on exact multiples of the current open gate resolution. 
  • The new camera is in the GH5 family, but who knows what it's called. All the rumors agree on it being a GH5 something, and Luke beginning discussion of it in an old GH5 thread supports that.
  • The new camera will be more video centric with improved video features. My first guess would be improved low light, or maybe dual ISO. If Casey does in fact have a prototype then I'd also say improved video auto focus would be in there too. Beyond that we're left to just speculate. Could be improved IBIS (or maybe anamorphic IBIS). Better audio. Magnification while shooting. More DR. Improved color. Man I'd love false color. 

ADDITIONAL THOUGHTS

  • Could there be more than 1 camera or product being released? Perhaps the camera Luke has is not the same as the one Casey has. One for cinema? One for vloggers?
  • The images Luke is posting are stunning. Maybe they are simply the result of an ultra nice lens and Luke's talent. But something tells me these images are richer than the ones that come out of my GH5. Do we dare say RAW? But how would greater than 4K RAW be recorded internally in a GH5? Never once did I see an external recorder in Luke's bts.
  • Sorry if this is stupid, but I can't get it out of my head. In every single instance where Luke is shooting, the Panasonic DMW-XLR1 XLR Microphone Adapter is attached to the camera. Every time. And only once is there a mic plugged in. Could this observation answer the questions to the previous two bullets? Preposterous.

Wow. What a superb analysis. Dude you're a detective first and filmmaker later.

 

Luke is using an expensive lens because Panasonic most likely has a PL mount for their low light cinema GH camera, so that it does not eat into EVA's customer base. Aldo the cinema one may thus have lousy autofocus. 

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10 minutes ago, sanveer said:

Wow. What a superb analysis. Dude you're a detective first and filmmaker later.

 

Luke is using an expensive lens because Panasonic most likely has a PL mount for their low light cinema GH camera, so that it does not eat into EVA's customer base. Aldo the cinema one may thus have lousy autofocus. 

Remember forum guidelines, you don't have to requote long reams of material just to add one line at the bottom. 

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That anyway then you have to calculate the sensor differences with the lenses.
That is, it is true that between S35 and m4 / 3 there is little difference ... but I work
with S35 sensor and s35 lenses it's all another work ...

https://www.abelcine.com/fov/

49.6 mm:  http://i65.tinypic.com/azcpqr.png

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6 hours ago, sanveer said:

Wow. What a superb analysis. Dude you're a detective first and filmmaker later.

I know and this is sad right? I started that post committed to finishing it. But half way through I was like, this is just really sad. But I was committed to finishing. Hopefully in the coming months I change this around and actually do filmmaking. 

 

6 hours ago, sanveer said:

Luke is using an expensive lens because Panasonic most likely has a PL mount for their low light cinema GH camera, so that it does not eat into EVA's customer base. Aldo the cinema one may thus have lousy autofocus. 

No. Earlier is this thread Luke clearly states that he is using a Wooden Camera Pl to M43 adapter. 

5 hours ago, Neumann Films said:

1.jpg

I guess Griffin Hammond is in on this too? Why is he shooting the screen? Is there no mic adapter in this shot? Why is the camera so inconspicuous in all of Luke's bts shots? 

Ok. This is a sickness. I'm out. 

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23 minutes ago, Jonesy Jones said:

I guess Griffin Hammond is in on this too? Why is he shooting the screen? Is there no mic adapter in this shot? Why is the camera so inconspicuous in all of Luke's bts shots?

Because Panasonic will change/update what is possible to change within its actual circle generation of sensor/processor power/camera design. Better screen in this incarnation (G9 better EVF), better codec usage (it is said that G9 has better and cleaner JPG color) including some sort of prores and cleaner noise reduction resulting in more usable lowlight performance, better autofocus algorithm (it is said that G9 already bettered in that field)... All of this small/big changes/updates TOGETHER sum up to +500$/euros. As always, for some person it'll be important update, for others cosmetic. All three (or 2.5 via paid upgrade) incarnations has to equally-attractive coexist in 2018 portfolio... That is called, in language of EOS legend - making beautiful juice from last drops of GH nectar...

 

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2 hours ago, Jonesy Jones said:

No. Earlier is this thread Luke clearly states that he is using a Wooden Camera Pl to M43 adapter. 

Aaah. Thanks for pointing it out. I have been reading stuff in interludes for the longest.

 

2 hours ago, Jonesy Jones said:

Ok. This is a sickness. I'm out. 

They should hurry up with the release. 15th December is too far. 

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On 12/4/2017 at 1:05 AM, maxmizer said:

mathematical operations

If you're incapable of doing some very basic math on the fly, then you have bigger problems in  your life than using MFT vs S35

On 12/4/2017 at 3:10 AM, Jonesy Jones said:

Why is the camera so inconspicuous in all of Luke's bts shots? 

Why is Luke handing the camera with his hands? ;-)

On 12/4/2017 at 5:51 AM, Neumann Films said:

I mean, he's using a light camera...seemed fine.

Is this a hint it is going to be a light field camera? :-P

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12 hours ago, IronFilm said:

Se sei incapace di fare una matematica molto semplice al volo, allora hai problemi più grandi nella tua vita rispetto all'utilizzo di MFT vs S35

Lord, I have not offended nor given the incapable of anyone, in Italy for an offense in the press like this one risks the criminal conviction ...
https://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diffamazione

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