Neumann Films

18 minutes ago, Yurolov said:

I don't think the QC will be the same for a 1k pocket as it is for a 10k ursa. So any anecdotes about how someone's pocket failed just doesn't mean anything.

An important distinction. Any qualms about build quality should start and stop here. The Pocket Cinema Camera does feel very cheap, I will give @Coiii that much...but the URSA and specifically this model isn’t a part of that family. I have personally never used an URSA myself but just by looking at them they seem to be a step or two above the Pocket line.

Just now, Super8 said:

I agree about the body of the BM12K.   They need to stop messing around with the weird design looks and innovate the body so it appeals to RED users or anyone else.  If you spend 10K on a camera body in 2020 it should at least look as good what RED produces.  

I guess I need to look at it a little closer, it seemed like a C300 or something more in that range? 

9 minutes ago, thebrothersthre3 said:

Obviously Blackmagic doesn't have the pro reputation that RED has. They are trying to change that. If this camera can really deliver that will launch them forward. We'll see..

I think their biggest advantage is the reputation they have built with all of their other products. Their cameras have aimed high and come up short in the past but they haven’t ever really gone after the high end market.

One thing I will say, I think their customer service is pretty bad. If they want to break into the high end game they will need to beef that up.

16 minutes ago, Coiii said:

Ask a  experienced DP if they want to shoot a movie on a RED or a Blackmagic.

RED and Blackmagic are different markets. The market for the RED Helium is high budget TV shows, commercials, movies, music videos and documentaries where producers and DP are going for much more than just resolution or specs. It's about brand recognition (overall RED has good reputation, reliability (REDs fail, but they have an amazing customer service), image quality for capture and post production (approved by high budget movies and production houses), etc etc etc. It's not just a thing about price vs specs (ask yourself why the Alexa Mini is the most popular camera and it's not even 4K...)

I'm not saying that Blackmagic will not be a great brand in the future, they probably ill (?), but at the same time they have a lot to prove on the market, and that's not an easy task, it's a work of years and years, not just high specs and tech disruption.

RED had a similar reputation not all that long ago. It takes a big innovative splash to make people change ships...once they do you have a chance to shake up the market. I think this camera will make enough RED users jump ship and then it all comes down to this specific camera and how good/reliable it is. There’s no reason to think this camera isn’t how Blackmagic enters that conversation. None at all.

Poor Canon, this camera got hit by a complete tidal wave of marketing from the Ursa launch. Which is unfortunate because they really did innovate and do some great things, you know, by LAST weeks standards 😏

2 hours ago, Super8 said:

RED color and footage holds up.  RED blows away BM across the board.

Certainly debatable as of two days ago ☺️

The dirty secret is that RED color has been terrible since Epic Dragon. The Helium sensor is just bad. Prior to Dragon, RED received very similar complaints to what BM is getting right now. It only takes one solid camera and a few years to change the narrative.

2 minutes ago, Laurier said:

I think they will release more aggressively priced cameras sooner or later to stay in competition.

Probably reason #1 that I got out when I did. I felt a major price drop was around the corner. Now it almost has to be!

1 hour ago, Kino said:

You are leaving the castle and joining the peasants.

I've been in the castle but I'm not royalty. I still have the peasant mindset with cameras. I'm definitely not a camera snob.

1 hour ago, Kino said:

Since we are talking about your livelihood, I would not purchase a $10K BM camera without an extended warranty of 3-5 years.

I generally have insurance on all of my gear, at least if it's over $1,000. I suggest most people do the same actually, Athos insurance is really affordable. 

1 hour ago, Kino said:

Now if you are selling stock footage at 8K RAW, you may have a problem with selling BRAW as it has not enjoyed the universal adoption of R3D files until very recently. I think BM released BRAW plugins for Adobe and Avid just last year.

A few things to mention here. It seems to be 50/50 with people that want RAW vs people that just want a color graded clip that's ready to rock. For the people that do want RAW...they are hiring high end post houses for grading and they will have no problems since they use Resolve. You are correct that R3D's are more universally adopted than BRAW, but in the high end post world Resolve is more adopted than even R3D's!

1 hour ago, Kino said:

If you want to rent your camera out for the maximum fee, the RED is also a better choice in that regard. Many (non-technical) people in the industry have never heard of BM, but they all know and want RED. This is due to ignorance perhaps, but it is reality.

I don't rent my cameras out and have never had success with it (due to my location).

1 hour ago, Kino said:

I would wait a few weeks until you get more test footage in challenging outdoor conditions.

I will be waiting a few weeks...for my order to arrive! Then I will have all of the test footage I need 🙂

37 minutes ago, crevice said:

I am not a RED user, but RED body style and modularity is much more attractive to me than whatever the hell Blackmagic are doing over there. 

I will always remember when I ordered the RED Helium and started planning a shoot. The day it showed up and I went to power it on with the AC adapter only to realize that it didn't have an AC input. I was pretty shocked, even for RED it was bad. I think the "modularity" is just an excuse to charge more money for accessories. It's actually one of the reasons I want out. Blackmagic is doing it the way it should be done. Internal ND, built in XLR with Phantom Power, easy battery solutions and MEDIA...don't get me going on media for RED cameras.

39 minutes ago, crevice said:

but its a faux RAW to skirt around the patent. 

For me, it's all about data rates and compression. R3D is great but when you have to shoot 12:1 compression in 60p but you can do 5:1 in BRAW...I would choose 5:1 all day. Once you get into those higher compression numbers with RED files, they REALLY start to fall apart. 8K 60 looks pretty poor when you zoom in. I did some internal tests for a streaming company and they were less than impressed with the Helium at 8K 60.

34 minutes ago, Video Hummus said:

With stock there are multiple options. I’m sure offering source BRAW and a ProRes 444 is common. @Neumann Films?

There are two camps. One camp likes things ready to rock and don't care about color grading. They just want it to look great right away. The other camp wants the RAW files but I can always get away with 4444 in Log. The other camp is thrilled with 10 Bit H.265. I mean, H.265 is really incredible for delivery!

13 minutes ago, Snowfun said:

Quality control and after sales service?

(a genuine question not a suggestion!)

Quality Control...likely. I don’t know much about Blackmagic but from what I have heard it’s spotty?

RED has turned theirs around but there was a time where it was fairly “hit or miss”. I have had minor issues with almost every one I have owned now that I think about it.

After Sales Service - Again, not totally sure but I can say that RED’s is top notch. 

11 minutes ago, Danyyyel said:

That was before, everything has it's threshold, the 2.8k Alexa is still the No1 production camera, we are talking theatrical release. I mean the human being can resolve a certain amount and no one wants to sit 2 meters from a Cinema screen to look for pixel. the larger the screen, the further people will sit.

 

Theatrical releases don’t make up nearly the percentage of overall productions that it used to. Streaming platforms have quality thresholds that must be met and most productions move there just in case. 

3 minutes ago, Danyyyel said:

That's a joke, what pro's will burden themselves on 12k.

I’ve already talked to a few that are thinking of switching. Like I said, it’s enough to make them consider it. Blackmagic hasn’t really had an offering on the higher end until now, that’s why it’s relevant.

1 minute ago, kye said:

I told the wife about this camera.

She said I can get it, but I have to put every other purchase on hold for a long time, I am only allowed to buy $10k worth of storage, and once that's full, I have to go down to 640x480!

Do it, I think this IS the camera to “future proof” with. It has the feeling of like a 6K Red Epic Dragon (still my favorite RED camera). 

13 minutes ago, kye said:

Wow.  I went to bed last night and woke up to this..

I predicted an 8K FF camera as a semi-ridiculous joke, but I had no idea that it would turn out not audacious enough!!

My comments in the 1080p thread are interesting in this context though.  We are playing the megapixel game, but very few are giving high-bitrates to downscaled resolutions, but if this is giving 4K RAW downscaled from 12K then the image should be spectacular, while not requiring the computer to be able to push 12K pixels around.

This would make it a hugely flexible camera - yes you can shoot 12K RAW if the project warrants it, but you can also shoot 4K RAW with no crop at great bitrates and bit depths for projects where post needs to be more cost effective.

Also, if the colour science is great, this could put them on the map as a serious challenge to ARRI / RED.  Then they'd have to nail the reliability in order to actually take market share, but it's a shot across the bow nonetheless.

BM are thinking big - they do it with Resolve every year, did it with the pocket cameras since the OG Pocket, and now at the high-end too.

This is what RED should have been doing all along and I guess they started to with 4K ProRes proxies, either way...for me this announcement marks major gap in the armor for RED. Probably not "the end" as they have been silent for a while and probably have something big in the pipeline. The problem is that RED has been chasing the resolution dragon (thank you) almost exclusively. They haven't given us more FPS and they have actually taken functionality away while getting more expensive! The features of this camera are almost...silly. RED would charge $50,000 for a similar camera but an extra $10,000 would be needed for accessories. 

So yeah...this is a major splash on the high end. Enough to make a lot of RED guys switch? Who knows. Will it test their loyalty? Abso-freaking-lutely. 

4 minutes ago, hijodeibn said:

have a nice day too.

Last comment, I’m not mad I just want to make a point:

Criticizing fellow creatives is rude, no matter what. I don’t care what you do for a living, it puts food on your table and provides for you and those you care about. 
 

Weddings? Great, pay them bills. It’s better than most 9 to 5s and requires a lot of skill.

YouTube shill? Fine, pay them bills. It’s on us, the consumer, to do our own research and make the right buying decisions. 
 

What I don’t like is when someone mocks someone else for the work they do. It shows a lack of big picture awareness. Especially in 2020 man, everyone is scrambling. 

1 minute ago, hijodeibn said:

that's what you said before, please do not ignore your own words.

Whatever my man, I'm done with this. You know your intent just as much as I do. Have a good day.

2 minutes ago, hijodeibn said:

I said that about the camera, that is the perfect camera for that purpose, was not directed to you, you then call me clown, that was a direct offense. You did it first.

Perfectly acceptable explanation except for...

Quote

the only Clown I see is the one shooting stock footage, and happy about it!!!

So. I call bullshit. Don't walk it back. Own it.

2 minutes ago, hijodeibn said:

I am not trolling, this guy call me Clown before, just read the previous comments, do not expect I will not react if somebody call me clown two times before.

and I just answer him with the same offense, I did not scale it.

STOCK FOOTAGE SHOOTERS!!!

Ring any bells? You offended before I responded to you...clowny. Don't mock what you don't understand.

Just now, hijodeibn said:

Stock Footage Shooters like you

Oh, so your Caps Lock isn't stuck then. Clown act still engaged though.

Just now, ade towell said:

I think they're going for RED's market more than anything

This is the answer right here.

5 minutes ago, hijodeibn said:

except for fan boys and STOCK FOOTAGE SHOOTERS!!!

I could show you a few receipts that would help you dial down the clown act. 🙂

I think people are missing some key things here. Built in ND, XLR audio, cheap media/accessories, 8K @ 110 fps and 4K at over 200 without cropping.

Do you know how much of a breath of fresh air all of that is compared to RED cameras? You spend $30K on a RED only for it to show up with no AC power input, no audio ports and some of the worst looking slow motion at 4K that you can imagine. 

This is BM's move to break into a new market.

1 minute ago, A_Urquhart said:

So you have a camera that you are extremely happy with and suits your needs perfectly....why are you so unhappy and aggressive right now?

Because brand tribalism is apparently what it's all about?

2 minutes ago, hijodeibn said:

a new camera for stock footage, Great Work Blackmagic!!!

I probably would not use this for anything else. Not a fan of their cameras or their workflow. I'm sure it's the perfect camera for other applications too though. It's a specialty tool.