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EOSHD Youtube: Thoughts on the Canon Cinema EOS R5C confirmed for 19th Jan


Andrew Reid
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EOSHD Pro Color 5 for Sony cameras EOSHD Z LOG for Nikon CamerasEOSHD C-LOG and Film Profiles for All Canon DSLRs

I don't watch too many YouTube reviews but I have to admit that your near-awkward Web 1.0 video style is kinda endearing. If I have to see another blue light special review on the bridge of the S.S. Cliche-aprise I may just gag. And since nobody on YT makes videos about the 5D Mark III and ML Raw, I have very little reason to watch.

With that said, why are Canon going all in with the R Mount? The R3 seems kinda nifty I guess, but I'd much rather have RawLite on an EF mount 5D Mark V with IBIS and internal NDs.

Like you said, the DSLR revolution is... over.

Maybe we should start producing art on cameras that were released pre-2015.

Fuck 'em!

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My two cents too, vimeo vids shot with tech pre 2015 are much nicer thought out, are more felt with an artists sensibility and competence, more interesting done than with hightech stuff from the later years. Low budget HD cams beginning with the likes of GH1, Canon Ti and so on showed an approach more connected to the possibilites and impact of visual cinematic language than these days. I am talking about semi pro stuff. Pro ads and big money productions are not of interest to me when it comes to the short form of film.

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Hilarious video and so true, the S1H beats the R5c before it even comes out in nearly every possible way except for in 2 very important ways:

- The R5C will sell hundreds times more because it will have useable AF, this is the sole reason I never considered the S1H as a viable GH5 replacement; spending that much $$ to still have the same AF problems as the GH5 didn't make sense to me which is how I ended up with the S5 (less $$ with many of the S1H's benefits)

- L-Mount "alliance" - Lets face it, the "alliance" kind of sucks due to inconsistent user experiences and incompatibilities but the biggest problem for Canon users is buying new L-mount lenses for what may be a dying Panasonic model line. Sure there's adapters but you lose what little AF you've got when you go that route

Canon probably can't decide on CLOG2 because the DR of the R5's sensor will fall apart with CLOG2. Multiple tests have shown that the R5's DR isn't that great, CLOG2 would simply amplify that problem. 

I will admit that as much as I dislike what Canon did with the R5 and R6, the R5c does check a lot of boxes for me.  Only time will tell where the cripple hammer chose to strike for this new camera body. There is no way Canon is going to let just a few ND filters and XLR inputs stand between its R5c and C70 because so far on paper the R5c beats the C70 in nearly every way.

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3 hours ago, herein2020 said:

Canon probably can't decide on CLOG2 because the DR of the R5's sensor will fall apart with CLOG2. Multiple tests have shown that the R5's DR isn't that great, CLOG2 would simply amplify that problem. 

R5's dynamic range in stills mode is much better than the current video performance of around 10-11 stops. The R5 sensor should yield a higher DR, but the problem is the video encoding. Canon's Cinema "RAW" utilizes the Log profiles that are built into the camera. This is true on all the cinema cameras.

For comparison, CLOG2 performed well on the old C300 II sensor from 2015, so there is no reason why it can't work with the much newer R5 sensor.

Combined with Cinema RAW Lite, XF-AVC, upgraded ports, unlimited recording time, and the new XLR hot shoe, it makes for a compelling cinema cam far beyond the capabilities of the original R5.

Withholding CLOG2 from this camera only makes sense if they want to protect the C70 or the future Cinema EOS 8K cameras.

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11 minutes ago, Kino said:

R5's dynamic range in stills mode is much better than the current video performance of around 10-11 stops. The R5 sensor should yield a higher DR, but the problem is the video encoding. Canon's Cinema "RAW" utilizes the Log profiles that are built into the camera. This is true on all the cinema cameras.

For comparison, CLOG2 performed well on the old C300 II sensor from 2015, so there is no reason why it can't work with the much newer R5 sensor.

Combined with Cinema RAW Lite, XF-AVC, upgraded ports, unlimited recording time, and the new XLR hot shoe, it makes for a compelling cinema cam far beyond the capabilities of the original R5.

Withholding CLOG2 from this camera only makes sense if they want to protect the C70 or the future Cinema EOS 8K cameras.

Is not the problem of raw light but the readout speed they need to switch to 12bit, this is why photos in ES have the same DR as video, mechanical has the full DR.

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42 minutes ago, gt3rs said:

Is not the problem of raw light but the readout speed they need to switch to 12bit, this is why photos in ES have the same DR as video, mechanical has the full DR.

True. I had to look this up as I don't own an R5. The camera switches to 12 bit readout in Electronic Shutter mode. That is a serious problem.

This is why Canon Cinema Cameras since the original C300 have always used 14 bit readout at the sensor regardless of the video encode.

So, the R5 sensor, at least in its current configuration, is possible destined for poor video DR even with a shiny new "C" next to it. Perhaps this is correct, but if they can add CLOG 3 to the R5, then CLOG 2 should not be a problem.

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4 hours ago, herein2020 said:

The R5C will sell hundreds times more because it will have useable AF, this is the sole reason I never considered the S1H as a viable GH5 replacement; spending that much $$ to still have the same AF problems as the GH5 didn't make sense to me which is how I ended up with the S5 (less $$ with many of the S1H's benefits)

And this is why the GH6 will most likely fail, and the S2H and so on. AF is becoming competent enough where its actually reliable and useful for common situations. Why spend that kind of money and not get AF? Panasonic wake up.

4 hours ago, herein2020 said:

There is no way Canon is going to let just a few ND filters and XLR inputs stand between its R5c and C70

C70 has superior DR, XLR, internal NDs, CLOG2 and pro level exposure tools. 

 

25 minutes ago, Kino said:

True. I had to look this up as I don't own an R5. The camera switches to 12 bit readout in Electronic Shutter mode. That is a serious problem.

This is why Canon Cinema Cameras since the original C300 have always used 14 bit readout at the sensor regardless of the video encode.

And this is why I'm confused with why it's in the Canon Cinema line. A "pro" compact VIDEO cinema camera with a mirrorless photo camera's sensor. I'm excited to see the body and form factor though.

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7 minutes ago, Video Hummus said:

C70 has superior DR, XLR, internal NDs, CLOG2 and pro level exposure tools

I think it's going to be a close call due to the R5's better AF, IBIS, RAW capabilities, and XLR hotshoe option. At the run and gun level I don't think CLOG2 is going to matter that much.....now on the other hand an eND filter would be a game changer. Also the R5 is natively full frame with no adapter compromises even with RF lenses.

It remains to be seen what exposure tools they put into the R5c, I would think they would at least have a WFM which is what I use the most....false color is too much to ask but would be even better.

11 minutes ago, Video Hummus said:

 A "pro" compact VIDEO cinema camera with a mirrorless photo camera's sensor. I'm excited to see the body and form factor though.

I am trying not to get excited, Canon has disappointed me too many times in the past but at least it will be fun to read about on the 19th. On paper this  could finally be the perfect hybrid camera 

 

1 hour ago, Kino said:

R5's dynamic range in stills mode is much better than the current video performance of around 10-11 stops.

Yes the video DR is what I was referring to, but who knows, with proper cooling maybe they can bump the DR up to 12 or 13 stops by sticking to 14 bit. As it stands now, it would be a step down from my S5.....a very expensive step down when you factor in all of the extras you have to buy to get into the system.

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11 minutes ago, herein2020 said:

I think it's going to be a close call due to the R5's better AF, IBIS, RAW capabilities, and XLR hotshoe option. At the run and gun level I don't think CLOG2 is going to matter that much.....now on the other hand an eND filter would be a game changer. Also the R5 is natively full frame with no adapter compromises even with RF lenses.

It remains to be seen what exposure tools they put into the R5c, I would think they would at least have a WFM which is what I use the most....false color is too much to ask but would be even better.

It kinda sounds to me like Canon is pulling a Sony FX3. So basically a rehoused R5 that allows cooling.

Canon have never put any exposure tools like WFM outside of the C line so I wouldn't expect it here either.

Personally I'd still pick a C70 over a R5C for video. ND's, XLR, all day battery life, DGO sensor, exposure tools, anamorphic support etc. All that matters more in the real world to me than resolution or even IBIS.

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25 minutes ago, Django said:

It kinda sounds to me like Canon is pulling a Sony FX3. So basically a rehoused R5 that allows cooling.

Canon have never put any exposure tools like WFM outside of the C line so I wouldn't expect it here either.

Personally I'd still pick a C70 over a R5C for video. ND's, XLR, all day battery life, DGO sensor, exposure tools, anamorphic support etc. All that matters more in the real world to me than resolution or even IBIS.

Oh I agree, the C70 will always be the better option if you are only shooting video, but if the R5c keeps all of its photography features as well it will have no equal for run and gun hybrid shooters like me since the C70 has zero photography capabilities.

The R5c sounds like it could be the general purpose workhorse photography camera while still providing enough usable video features for event videos, music videos, weddings, promo videos, etc.

If Canon strips out the photography features then they will finally once and for all be dead to me.

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They should put a proper codec in there like ProRes because their 10bit 422 is very sluggish to edit at the moment. Anyone else find the same?

And their Raw codec isn't anywhere near up to the performance of RED's or BRAW in Resolve!

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1 hour ago, Video Hummus said:

And this is why the GH6 will most likely fail, and the S2H and so on. AF is becoming competent enough where its actually reliable and useful for common situations. Why spend that kind of money and not get AF? Panasonic wake up.

I think Dual Pixel AF will come to Panasonic's next bunch of cameras.

A lot of people here I am sure would love to shoot with an Alexa, Digital Bolex or RED with manual focus lenses or anamorphic LOMOs so autofocus isn't even the top priority for most but I do 100% agree it's very useful for every day work

1 hour ago, Video Hummus said:

C70 has superior DR, XLR, internal NDs, CLOG2 and pro level exposure tools. 

I really think the R5C should have these too, being a Cinema EOS camera and likely $6000+?

It's more likely to be exact same hardware as R5C just with the fan and firmware update to remove the artificial record timer.

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1 hour ago, Andrew Reid said:

They should put a proper codec in there like ProRes because their 10bit 422 is very sluggish to edit at the moment. Anyone else find the same?

And their Raw codec isn't anywhere near up to the performance of RED's or BRAW in Resolve!

It's a high bitrate h265 so like any camera using that codec its a PITA if you're using a non M1 Mac. 

But if you upgrade to even the most basic $999 M1 MacBook Air, the codec becomes a breeze! 

Can't comment on the Raw but file sizes alone sound like a nightmare to manage.

1 hour ago, herein2020 said:

Oh I agree, the C70 will always be the better option if you are only shooting video, but if the R5c keeps all of its photography features as well it will have no equal for run and gun hybrid shooters like me since the C70 has zero photography capabilities.

The R5c sounds like it could be the general purpose workhorse photography camera while still providing enough usable video features for event videos, music videos, weddings, promo videos, etc.

If Canon strips out the photography features then they will finally once and for all be dead to me.

Well concerning "photography features" imo either two things: they'll remove the EVF like Sony did on FX3 or the price will be indeed be upwards $6K.  And at that point the R3 could be a competitor. Or R6 + second hand C70 which is the combo I'm looking at right now.  There will be a catch with the R5C imho. cripple hammer or insane price. 

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2 hours ago, Andrew Reid said:

I really think the R5C should have these too, being a Cinema EOS camera and likely $6000+?

It's more likely to be exact same hardware as R5C just with the fan and firmware update to remove the artificial record timer.

I don't know what currency everyone is using for their price predictions but I don't think there is any possible way the R5c will be $6000+ USD. I think it more likely to be $4200USD; I mean come on all they did was add a fan and change a few lines of firmware code!!

The Nikon Z9 shows the art of the possible and at $6K USD the R1 flagship would be pushing $8K+ USD.  The S1H shows the art of the possible as well at only $3200 and technically the S1H even still has some really impressive photography features even though no one talks about them. I think it will come in below the R3 maybe right at $4500USD then drop in 6 months and around holidays to $4200USD. There's just too much competition for them to get away with $6K USD.

For $6K USD I would have to believe it would have dual CFE slots, eND, 14bit sensor readout for video, EVF, ProRes and a way to cook its owner dinner every evening.

Personally, my interest in this camera will drop very quickly for every $100USD it goes over $4K. I did the math one day to make the switch to just the R5 and after memory cards, battery grip, adapters, card readers, and batteries were calculated I was close to $10K USD. That's before even 1 RF lens was added and that did not account for the extra storage needed for those massive file sizes.

 

1 hour ago, Django said:

Well concerning "photography features" imo either two things: they'll remove the EVF like Sony did on FX3 or the price will be indeed be upwards $6K.  And at that point the R3 could be a competitor. Or R6 + second hand C70 which is the combo I'm looking at right now.  There will be a catch with the R5C imho. cripple hammer or insane price. 

 

Maybe I am still being too naive but I have to believe that Canon wants to hit this one out of the park and there's no way I'd buy a photography camera without an EVF for any price.

I think its going to come in around $4200 USD with an EVF and possibly with the option to purchase a license to unlock ProRes.  Lets not forget it is also losing weather sealing due to the fan.

Even at $4200 it would take a lot for me to buy it; I'd probably stick with my 5DIV and S5 setup.

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https://www.canonrumors.com/more-than-just-the-canon-eos-r5c-will-be-announced-on-january-19-2022/

According to this source, Canon will also announce the following: RAW option for the C70 (this must be external); RF cinema glass; and C300/C500 8K cameras.

I guess the R5C is just a stop-gap until we get those proper 8K cinema cameras. Canon is milking the R5 one more time . . .

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