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Canon EOS R5C


Andrew Reid
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Correction: According to Canon, C70 Cinema RAW Light recording will be internal to the SD card:

https://www.canon.co.uk/video-cameras/eos-c70/?fbclid=IwAR2nBNoajqaNaIfH_u0du_JtTESFDUEEjCauYmzFwG1wGoxkgLjGc00TtY4

Cinema RAW light

The EOS C70 now offers users the ability to capture Cinema RAW Light internally to SD cards*. RAW provides you with greater image quality and flexibility in post-production.
On-top of the existing 10-bit XF-AVC currently found in the EOS C70, 12-bit Cinema RAW Light LT features data rates up to 645Mbps, offering much more manageable/efficient file sizes to streamline your workflow, while retaining the same benefits of RAW. Simultaneous recording of Cinema RAW Light and XF-AVC Proxies is also supported.
 

* firmware available in March 2022

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2 hours ago, Kino said:

C70 Cinema RAW Light recording will be internal to the SD card

This was my only holdout on the C70, as much as I hate Canon for their incessant cripple hammer, I have ef lenses and the usability/colours are reliable.

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On 1/13/2022 at 7:38 PM, Kino said:

https://www.canonrumors.com/more-than-just-the-canon-eos-r5c-will-be-announced-on-january-19-2022/

According to this source, Canon will also announce the following: RAW option for the C70 (this must be external); RF cinema glass; and C300/C500 8K cameras.

I guess the R5C is just a stop-gap until we get those proper 8K cinema cameras. Canon is milking the R5 one more time . . .

Rumors are saying the CRAW LT on the C70 will be internal to SD cards at 645Mbps. That’s highly compressed. How?

Also, perhaps they will tease new RF cinema cameras. If this is true then they are going all in on RF across product categories. 

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This new boy is probably my ‘perfect camera’ at this point in time…

I doubt very much that I will switch to Canon as a system and get one though.

My primary tools, camera body wise, are an S1R for stills and an S1H for video.

I did consider a pair of R5’s for hybrid use but it has 2 issues for me.

1: Cost

2: Overheating/reliability/trust issues

The new boy is surely going to be more than a ‘standard’ R5 so whilst Point 2: may be solved, Point 1 counters that even further.

The camera that ticks the most boxes of all is probably Nikon’s new Z9…but it’s enormous.

Some think and say the S1H is, but paired with the f2 Sigma primes that I use, it isn’t, but the Z9 is a beast and for me would be like returning to my old D3s days which is something I’d rather not do.

It bodes well for the next gen Z6/7 though…

Sony’s A7iv, loathe as I am to admit it, (I am not a fan of the brand despite having owned and still own and use, some of their products) is possibly the ‘best’ compromise right now for my needs and probably, if I was out shopping with a clean sheet start today, that’s where I’d go.

But this year for me is all about using what I have, partly because:

A: It’s bloody good kit with my only gripe being less than stellar AF for video (my compromise).

B: I just bought a new MacBook Pro1 because I needed both a laptop and a machine full stop that was an editing beast. Plus the only drone I have ever had was an original Mavic Air and having crashed it over a dozen times, it flies wonky and needed replacing, so a new Air 2S arrived this last week.

C. If I update my camera system in 2023, I am not going to do so until I know with certainty what Panasonic are doing, ie, maybe a new 2 series S1 line (but unless the AF is up to scratch it will be bye bye Panny) and also what Fuji do with the XH2.

The only camera system I have ever really ‘loved’ is Fuji so if they hit it out of the park with the XH2, it’s my most likely destination at some point.

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I hadn't realised it until you pointed it out, but Z9 is indeed 1340g which is on par with a D5 at 1400g and even more than S1H at 1150g!

That's some heavy mirrorless camera.

Hopefully they will trickle down ProRes and internal raw to a Z8 which will be a nice upgrade from a Z6.

Have you considered getting a GH6?

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8 hours ago, MrSMW said:

This new boy is probably my ‘perfect camera’ at this point in time…

I doubt very much that I will switch to Canon as a system and get one though.

My primary tools, camera body wise, are an S1R for stills and an S1H for video.

I did consider a pair of R5’s for hybrid use but it has 2 issues for me.

1: Cost

2: Overheating/reliability/trust issues

The new boy is surely going to be more than a ‘standard’ R5 so whilst Point 2: may be solved, Point 1 counters that even further.

The camera that ticks the most boxes of all is probably Nikon’s new Z9…but it’s enormous.

Some think and say the S1H is, but paired with the f2 Sigma primes that I use, it isn’t, but the Z9 is a beast and for me would be like returning to my old D3s days which is something I’d rather not do.

It bodes well for the next gen Z6/7 though…

Sony’s A7iv, loathe as I am to admit it, (I am not a fan of the brand despite having owned and still own and use, some of their products) is possibly the ‘best’ compromise right now for my needs and probably, if I was out shopping with a clean sheet start today, that’s where I’d go.

But this year for me is all about using what I have, partly because:

A: It’s bloody good kit with my only gripe being less than stellar AF for video (my compromise).

B: I just bought a new MacBook Pro1 because I needed both a laptop and a machine full stop that was an editing beast. Plus the only drone I have ever had was an original Mavic Air and having crashed it over a dozen times, it flies wonky and needed replacing, so a new Air 2S arrived this last week.

C. If I update my camera system in 2023, I am not going to do so until I know with certainty what Panasonic are doing, ie, maybe a new 2 series S1 line (but unless the AF is up to scratch it will be bye bye Panny) and also what Fuji do with the XH2.

The only camera system I have ever really ‘loved’ is Fuji so if they hit it out of the park with the XH2, it’s my most likely destination at some point.

 

Your ability to constantly change kit never ceases to amaze me lol. I love talking and reading about new kit but the only changes I've made in the last 10yrs was upgraded from a 5DIII to a 5DIV and from a GH5 to an S5.  Most of my $$ goes to audio, lighting, and drones. Everything else I rent as needed.

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13 hours ago, Video Hummus said:

Rumors are saying the CRAW LT on the C70 will be internal to SD cards at 645Mbps. That’s highly compressed. How?

Also, perhaps they will tease new RF cinema cameras. If this is true then they are going all in on RF across product categories. 

The current Cinema RAW Light on C200/C300 III records at 1Gbps, so this "LT" is a slightly more efficient/compressed version of what they already have. It should bring the image much closer to the levels of the C300 III RAW footage, which has better detail and colors (at the price of more noise in the shadows).

Despite the rumors I posted above, I'm doubtful that Canon would undercut the R5C announcement by also revealing the new 8K cinema cameras. I would imagine a separate announcement later in the year for such revolutionary 8K DGO sensors. As you suggest, it may well be more of a "tease."

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On 1/13/2022 at 1:32 PM, Andrew Reid said:

They should put a proper codec in there like ProRes because their 10bit 422 is very sluggish to edit at the moment. Anyone else find the same?

Works great for me on a Mac Pro / SSD in premiere. C70 files?

On 1/13/2022 at 4:38 PM, Kino said:

 

According to this source, Canon will also announce the following: RAW option for the C70 (this must be external); RF cinema glass; and C300/C500 8K cameras.

Is it Raw Lite? That codec sucks so bad. I’ve never heard of anyone using it, unless they’re capturing in RawLite and converting to ProRes 12 bit 444.

One of the best features about the C70 is the amazing Long GOP compression. It is really really impressive. The files are tiny and look amazing. It is very hard to tell the difference. 

Im also not sure how or why they would create 8k output on those sensors? The reality is that their sensors lack the sharpness of RED or Sony. I would love the ability to run an external recorder and get 12 bit 4K ProRes 444 from the raw signal. I’m not sure if this is possible.

The C70 4k looks VERY similar to the C300 mkii. (Which is known for having a softer image.) In fact, those cameras are so similar that they match very very well, but there wasn’t a huge leap in quality... I would even argue some of the older color profiles just looked better. (Log2 BT.709 was removed from the C70 and C300 Mkiiii. In my opinion, it better and easier to grade than Log2 C-Gamut,) in my experience.

I will say, the C70 sensor is definitely cleaner in the shadows, especially when shooting Log2... High ISO performance is basically the same but a little worse on the DGO sensor... but again, the difference isn’t HUGE to my eyes.

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22 hours ago, Video Hummus said:

Rumors are saying the CRAW LT on the C70 will be internal to SD cards at 645Mbps. That’s highly compressed. How?

The C70 uses SDXC cards. The write speed maxes out at 300mbps... 

I really wish they had went Cfast 2.0 or even the OG like the Komodo. 

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38 minutes ago, BenEricson said:

The C70 uses SDXC cards. The write speed maxes out at 300mbps... 

I really wish they had went Cfast 2.0 or even the OG like the Komodo. 

V90 SD cards top out at 90MB/s which is 720 Mbits/sec. They are saying 645Mbit/sec so that makes sense since there is always protocol overhead.

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50 minutes ago, BenEricson said:

The reality is that their sensors lack the sharpness of RED or Sony.

Just a small point, but if I take this sentence literally, then you're saying that somehow when light enters one of the photosites on their sensor that it's also somehow activating the photosites around it, which I think violates the laws of physics.  Every other source of softness exists outside of the sensor, being the optical performance of the on-sensor filters, in the subsequent processing of the signal after the sensor, including debayering etc.

For proper evaluation of the sensor, you'd have to evaluate RAW stills, taken with super-high resolution glass, stopped down, in black&white, and under ideal test conditions.  The limit on resolution is far more likely than people expect to be the optics or processing / compression rather than the sensor.

Besides, 2K is pretty close to the threshold of what can be seen at normal viewing distances, and while that's debated, 8K is easily outside that discussion.

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44 minutes ago, BenEricson said:

One of the best features about the C70 is the amazing Long GOP compression. It is really really impressive. The files are tiny and look amazing. It is very hard to tell the difference. 

Hearing this makes me think this is just another buttered up spec feature rather than offering anything of practical value.

R5 is 8K RAW Lite 1350Mbps which is just over double what the supposed C70 will offer at 4K. So I guess R5 is much more compressed considering its 4x the data (4K vs 8K).

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40 minutes ago, Video Hummus said:

V90 SD cards top out at 90MB/s which is 720 Mbits/sec. They are saying 645Mbit/sec so that makes sense since there is always protocol overhead.

interesting! Okay thanks for clearing that up.

33 minutes ago, kye said:

Just a small point, but if I take this sentence literally, then you're saying that somehow when light enters one of the photosites on their sensor that it's also somehow activating the photosites around it, which I think violates the laws of physics.  Every other source of softness exists outside of the sensor, being the optical performance of the on-sensor filters, in the subsequent processing of the signal after the sensor, including debayering etc.

For proper evaluation of the sensor, you'd have to evaluate RAW stills, taken with super-high resolution glass, stopped down, in black&white, and under ideal test conditions.  The limit on resolution is far more likely than people expect to be the optics or processing / compression rather than the sensor.

Besides, 2K is pretty close to the threshold of what can be seen at normal viewing distances, and while that's debated, 8K is easily outside that discussion.

Yes. You’re right. They’re also doing a lot of noise removal etc. It is a really clean image. Maybe raw improves things.

Watch some 4k uploads on Vimeo of the Komodo and then watch some stuff with the C70. There is a huge difference in sharpness and color depth with the red. 

I suppose this is like the iPhone though. The good and bad is the processing. The processing hides noise and artifacts, but can remove detail etc. Ultimately, the processing an iPhone does, is optimal in most scenarios.

32 minutes ago, Video Hummus said:

Hearing this makes me think this is just another buttered up spec feature rather than offering anything of practical value.

I probably should back up on what I said about Canon Raw Lite. I don’t have any experience with the codec but have some second hand experience. My very talented editor friend was complaining about how ridiculously slow the files were editing. (30 min to import an hour long interview.)

I recommended re-compressing the CRL files to 12 bit 444 ProRes. That seemed to be a solid work around. Again, maybe the work flow gets better / smoother as premiere releases updates. A free added feature is always welcomed. You’re right though, they just want to sell units and compete with the Komodo / Pocket 6K.

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31 minutes ago, BenEricson said:

Yes. You’re right. They’re also doing a lot of noise removal etc. It is a really clean image. Maybe raw improves things.

Watch some 4k uploads on Vimeo of the Komodo and then watch some stuff with the C70. There is a huge difference in sharpness and color depth with the red. 

I suppose this is like the iPhone though. The good and bad is the processing. The processing hides noise and artifacts, but can remove detail etc. Ultimately, the processing an iPhone does, is optimal in most scenarios.

You can't judge resolution or sharpness of a camera by watching YT.  So much stuff has been done to the data coming off the sensor before you watch it that it's like judging if a restaurant uses high-quality organic ingredients by drinking the sludge at the bottom of their dumpster rubbish bins in the alley behind the restaurant.

Colour science is a different matter, but once again, so much of it isn't the camera.

Have you ever seen Alexa footage SOOC, or graded ARRI footage shot by amateurs?  It is almost indistinguishable from any other footage.  I think one third of the look of ARRI happens on set, and another third happens in colour grading, and only the remaining third happens in-camera.  At best, this is like trying to taste the quality of the ingredients after they've been cooked.  Which is also a decent parallel because the average mum/dad cooking with the finest ingredients on the planet is still likely to end up with a mediocre result, at best.

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I can't speak for the C70, I haven't seen much footage from it, but everything I've seen from RawLite looks amazing to me. I love C200 Raw and the 1DX Mark III seems like the perfect camera for me.

But I agree with @BenEricson... Komodo footage is next level and, based on IQ alone, bridges a major gap between prosumer cinema cameras and the big boys.

I really like the Canon look. Heck, it's why I still shoot with my trusty, old 5D Mark III and ML Raw. Most cameras that I can afford would be a lateral move in overall IQ. Blackmagic cameras have a nice image and so does Sony, but the Komodo, at $6K, is a major leap in my opinion.

With that said, if the RawLite rumor for the C70 is true is good news. I don't know if it's necessary for half of the camera's users, but that's neither here nor there.

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@BenEricson to demonstrate things a little more, here's a test I did some time ago.

Started with an 8K RAW file from a RED Helium, put it on a 4K timeline and downscaled/upscaled it to various resolutions to see how visible it was on 4K YT.  

Even pixel peeing won't reveal any meaningful differences much above 2K.  So, when there's so little difference between sub-4K Prores HQ and 8K RAW on a 4K YT video, basically all the sharpness differences you'll be seeing will be lenses or processing.

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14 hours ago, herein2020 said:

Your ability to constantly change kit never ceases to amaze me

Actually, I have only changed kit fundamentally twice, in a 22 year career.

Or brands anyway…

I started out with Nikon film cameras and switched to Nikon digital sometime around 2004/5.

When the X100 was announced, I knew it was something I was looking for, went to a trade show, handled it, preordered and received one of the first to land in the UK.

Took it the very next day to my first wedding of the year and loved it to bits. OK the only battery I had died just prior to the ceremony, but the Fuji bug had bitten.

The following year, 2011 (?) the X Pro1 arrived and I bought the entire system available at the time comprising 2 bodies plus 3 lenses and sold all my Nikon gear.

Stuck with Fuji all the way through until the end of 2019 but at that point it was not quite cutting it anymore for my needs…

The XT3 was near perfect, but the lack of IBIS was killing it for my needs. The XT4 was but a rumor, though a likely one.

2020 started and heading towards Spring and a new wedding season, I had zero kit as I’d sold it all off knowing the set up I had was not what I would be using in 2020.

But, there was nothing else out there ticking enough boxes other than the about to be launched XT4, so I preordered a pair and a couple of lenses.

Alas, it was not to be as enter Covid.

30 weddings became 1.

I bought some used kit for that single job and then knowing there would be no further work for another 9 months, immediately sold it.

Panny S5 is announced and although a very immature system at the time, to me was a slightly ‘better’ XT4 equivalent.

Bought one, as my sole camera, with the kit lens.

Liked it a lot, but needed more kit.

Bought a used S1H at just over 2k. Loved it.

Bought a used S1R from a colleague for 1.5k. Love it. Not as much as the S1H, but slightly more than the S5.

I ended up shooting 5 last year from what should have been 30 weddings, growing this system as the short 6 week ‘season’ unfolded.

I now have a near ‘perfect’ set up for me based on what is available today and within a certain budget.

Could I do it with Leica? Nope, the cost and lack of a tilting screen kills it for me.

Nikon? Nope. Not unless I wished to go backwards or rig up for video needs and I wish to do neither.

Canon? R5 stills + R6 video could and would work but even selling all my current kit, I’d be looking at 10k+ to find. And after the last 2 years, I don’t have it.

Ditto Sony. An A7iv system could work, but again, a 10k+ cost to change and for what advantage? I know I wouldn’t care for it so much as a system and enjoyment is part if my job.

M4/3? No, briefly flirted with it for both video and stills and whilst for video it was OK, I shoot a lot of low light and it doesn’t cut it for my needs.

Fuji? An XT4 system would work but again, nothing compelling enough to switch from the system I currently have. 

And if Covid had not come along?

I’d still be with Fuji for sure and would not have cancelled that XT4 preorder…

The bottom line for me is that these are just tools at the end of the day, but tools I wish to enjoy using.

In a normal year, the total cost is approx 5% of my annual turnover so trading and switching bodies or lenses within a system from time to time is neither here nor there!

But right now it’s:

S1H for primarily handheld or monopod video.

S1R for dedicated stills.

S5 for gimbal and static tripod video.

That’s my ‘defense’ anyway 😜

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20 hours ago, Andrew Reid said:

I hadn't realised it until you pointed it out, but Z9 is indeed 1340g which is on par with a D5 at 1400g and even more than S1H at 1150g!

That's some heavy mirrorless camera.

Hopefully they will trickle down ProRes and internal raw to a Z8 which will be a nice upgrade from a Z6.

Have you considered getting a GH6?

It’s not just the weight, but the sheer physical size of the thing…and I work with 2 bodies at all times, one primarily stills and one primarily video (but with the ability to flip between the two if needs be).

The spec/capability for me is perfect…but the size…and never mind the cost, is not.

Brilliant brilliant piece of kit…for someone else.

I only use my S1H with either the Sigma 35mm f2 indoors, or 65mm f2 outdoors and this combo is basically 1.5kg.

Just under I think and although I’d prefer smaller and lighter, the reality is that for handheld video, this combo is near perfect for ergos/handling/stabilisation as in that bit of heft and weight helps.

GH6? At this time, it’s just a myth isn’t it despite them saying it’s coming?!

Two questions I have asked myself are:

1: What would any GH6 do for me compared with the S1H and

2: What would any GH6 do for me compared with the S5?

In regard to the S1H, unless the GH6 does have PDAF, nothing that I’d want or need.

In regard to the S5, my static tripod and gimbal camera, as above.

Oh and BTW, for those that shoot APSC crop 4K 50 or 60p, the S5 with Sigmas new tiny 18-50mm f2.8, is a sub 1kg monster of a unit!

For me, that combo is a no-brainer and I have even considered the use of this lens as the sole lens with my S1H, but the reality is that I do prefer the longer reach of the 65mm f2 outdoors (100mm equiv rather than 75mm) plus that extra stop of lighting gathering, but for some others, it makes for a package only 100g heavier than an XT4 with the 16-55mm f2.8!!

OK, the latter would have an equivalent zoom length of ‘24-83’mm vs 28-75, but the S1H kicks the XT4’s arse in most departments.

Anyway, enough of my Sunday morning coffee ramblings… 🤪

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The C70 codec is definitely soft compared to the C300 mk3. This guy shows a direct comparison:

C200 is also very soft when using XFAVC vs RAW Lite, so hopefully on C70 the RAW Lite will add the missing sharpness/detail. 

I must say adding such a compressed RAW codec on the C70 really seals the deal for me on that cam. Was not expecting such a major firmware update from Canon neither. 

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