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Blackmagic Pocket Cinema Camera 4K

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57 minutes ago, docmoore said:

You are correct ... the video is prior to the braw update. I assume that highlight recovery would be as effective as that of the Cinema DNG but that would

need to be demonstrated. Working with the raw files takes a bit of experience to find a decent balance that appears natural in high contrast landscapes.

Controlled lighting yields wonderful files ... great color and beautiful range of tones.

That makes sense. The CinemaDNG test is still a pretty good result now that I compare it with some of their other tests. 

I'm a little suspicious of ProAV's methodology:

Those cameras (C200, EVA1, FS7) are clipping at +4 over key on Caucasian skin. On average, Caucasian skin is about +1 stop over 18% gray. 4+1=5. So this indicates an over of <5 stops, somewhere around 4.5 stops it seems.

But the FS7 I believe is rated at +6 and the C200 is +6.3 and EVA should be around there, too. Suspicious. Highlight dynamic range is two stops short of expected. Or maybe that guy is really, really pale. How are they metering their scenes?

Compare with this test someone posted on Reduser:

http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?176662-FULL-FRAME-TEST-MONSTRO-ALEXA-LF-MAVO-VENICE&p=1857643&viewfull=1#post1857643

That indicates over values of:

>7 on Alexa (rated at 7.4-7.8)

>4 on Mavo LF

>6 on Venice 

>6 on C700 FF (rated at 6.3)

>5 on Monstro 

>5 on Ursa 4.6k (rated at 5.8 if I remember correctly)

That test seems much more accurate.

How is the performance for you at 800 ISO? This camera is getting more and more intriguing to me...

Edit: the more I look at ProAV's tests the more convinced I am they don't know what they're doing.

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EOSHD Pro Color for Sony cameras EOSHD Pro LOG for Sony CamerasEOSHD C-LOG and Film Profiles for All Canon DSLRs

I tend to shoot at 400/640 and then jump to 1250 to minimize noise .... so I have not explored 800 ... but I am very conservative in exposing

to protect highlights. But overall the camera delivers more than I expected ... but I may move to a S35 camera ... as I am used to the Z7 and Leica

SL ... as my two previous cameras. 

Mainly looking for a less build it yourself package ... and internal ND filters are high on my list ... as is TC in and out. I miss waveforms on the BM

although false color works ... a bit more finicky than a decent waveform in my hands.

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1 hour ago, docmoore said:

I tend to shoot at 400/640 and then jump to 1250 to minimize noise .... so I have not explored 800 ... but I am very conservative in exposing

to protect highlights. But overall the camera delivers more than I expected ... but I may move to a S35 camera ... as I am used to the Z7 and Leica

SL ... as my two previous cameras. 

Mainly looking for a less build it yourself package ... and internal ND filters are high on my list ... as is TC in and out. I miss waveforms on the BM

although false color works ... a bit more finicky than a decent waveform in my hands.

Yeah, I've read you need to kit the camera out. I was looking into buying a Resolve license (15% off today at Rakuten, maybe I should just buy that) but also wanted a B camera for a web series I might shoot next year. (Talking heads mostly....) Was considering an SL3 or 90D when that comes out, but the BMPCC 4k would only be $1000 effectively after the Resolve license and I wouldn't be using it as an A camera.

I wrote this camera off before because I want more highlight detail (just personal preference), but +5.5 stops at base ISO is competitive with Red, etc. And 60p 4k raw is pretty awesome...

On the other hand, a dSLR would be smaller and more rugged, even if the BMPCC would be a ridiculously better A camera. Mediocrity may win again, probably going to end up with a 90D or something.

I found some strange discontinued Kenko variable ND that prevents color shift I think with a depolarization layer or something? Expensive (around $300) but originally around $700 and can be dialed in to as little as 1.3 stops. That said I am a huge fan of internal ND filters, too. 

Well this looks like an awesome camera that has only gotten better, but perhaps it is not for me after all.

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I would not dissuade anyone from the camera ... with a little planning it gives a drop dead gorgeous image ...

 

1809850370_WeeklyBlog.thumb.jpg.cfec00d0f69091f16a136f02418cb408.jpg 

 

Koi.thumb.jpg.469dee53f156492734bcbc1b3b1b3286.jpg

 

Cypress.thumb.jpg.c6c5c1f7e2d4c46b543d18d9a9f24742.jpg

 

Decoys.thumb.jpg.5f3cc8d4a11fd41c698bac37b2648efc.jpg

 

The quality of the Q 0 braw is worth the effort and file size. Down sizing and going from png snaps to compressed jpgs here do the files a disservice.

Regards,

Bob

 

 

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44 minutes ago, docmoore said:

I would not dissuade anyone from the camera ... with a little planning it gives a drop dead gorgeous image ...

 

1809850370_WeeklyBlog.thumb.jpg.cfec00d0f69091f16a136f02418cb408.jpg 

 

Koi.thumb.jpg.469dee53f156492734bcbc1b3b1b3286.jpg

 

Cypress.thumb.jpg.c6c5c1f7e2d4c46b543d18d9a9f24742.jpg

 

Decoys.thumb.jpg.5f3cc8d4a11fd41c698bac37b2648efc.jpg

 

The quality of the Q 0 braw is worth the effort and file size. Down sizing and going from png snaps to compressed jpgs here do the files a disservice.

Regards,

Bob

 

 

Looks nice. Nice colors and tonality.

I'm taking this surprise sale on Resolve as a sign from the universe I don't need this camera, though. I have other bills and software I need to license this year that would agree. 😕 Will want them this year, won't need a B camera until next year is my guess. Hopeful this project gets off the ground, but not a lot of progress on it yet.

But braw sounds very impressive... the extra highlight detail and raw to SD cards seems to put this camera in a class of its own.

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Resolve is well worth the price ... indeed I bought it twice ... once from the Mac App store then again when I discovered I was hostage to Apple with regards to upgrades as they locked one out of all the beta improvements ...

And once purchased from BM it avails one of multiple upgrades without charge.

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There was no change in "highlights" to our log curves or otherwise. The previous manual dynamic range chart was incorrect, and was corrected.

There is also no inherent "highlight rolloff" in digital cameras from the sensor. They are all (mostly) linear capture devices. Same with Alexa, Red, etc. When they all clip in linear, they all clip suddenly/harshly. All of them.

 "Highlight rolloff" is really about total dynamic range, how you expose, and curves (which you can manipulate yourself).

Our log curves are optimized to store data in 10bit SDI and video files so the highlight roll off in our existing log curves is merely a function of optimising the dynamic range to fit in this data range with relation to the "native sensitivity" and desired ISO. The more dynamic range the sensor has the more highlights will roll off in the log curves, the same with Alexa/Red/etc. You want to use your own curves after in grading to create the roll off you want. Expose the sensor so middle grey is lower and leave more dynamic range in the highlights, and you can create a very nice gradual highlight rolloff in grading - with mostly any modern digital camera.

But it's pretty much all down to total dynamic range, exposure, and curves.

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27 minutes ago, CaptainHook said:

There was no change in "highlights" to our log curves or otherwise. The previous manual dynamic range chart was incorrect, and was corrected.

That's good to know. Regardless, +5.5 at base is very competitive. Similar to the 4.6k, no? 

I believe Foveon sensors have a non-linear rolloff, but point taken. I think the complicating factor is with A7S SLOG2 or something you have chroma clipping and sharpening that can muddy up the highlights in a way where they're difficult to recover aesthetically because the channel data is clipped in raster even if the signal wasn't in raw:

https://www.liftgammagain.com/forum/index.php?threads/the-dreaded-clipped-channels-on-sony-blue-footage.9970/

But I suppose this isn't an issue with Red, Alexa, Black Magic, etc. whether in raw or ProRes.

That said, there must also be something to the highlight recovery algorithm? I do wish Black Magic would implement this for cameras other than its own. My C200 raw footage could benefit from it for sure based on how effective it seems to be with 4.6k footage, but maybe that's not possible.

Just bought a Resolve license so you're getting my money either way. ;)

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56 minutes ago, HockeyFan12 said:

That said, there must also be something to the highlight recovery algorithm?

It reconstructs data in clipped channels from non-clipped channels. i.e Will do nothing if all channels are clipped. And the reconstructed data is generally absent of colour information since it's not known what was missing in the clipped data, and just heads to the white point.

I'm not sure what's available with the C200 rawlite files as I'm not in the Resolve team so my "inside" knowledge only surrounds our cameras and what we provide to the Resolve team (Blackmagic RAW is developed in the camera team).

I do know for instance though the C300 mk2 raw output over SDI has white balance information "baked in", which means all 3 channels are clipped (to avoid non-white highlights) so highlight recovery would not be possible on such data.

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11 minutes ago, CaptainHook said:

It reconstructs data in clipped channels from non-clipped channels. i.e Will do nothing if all channels are clipped. And the reconstructed data is generally absent of colour information since it's not known what was missing in the clipped data, and just heads to the white point.

I'm not sure what's available with the C200 rawlite files as I'm not in the Resolve team so my "inside" knowledge only surrounds our cameras and what we provide to the Resolve team (Blackmagic RAW is developed in the camera team).

I do know for instance though the C300 mk2 raw output over SDI has white balance information "baked in", which means all 3 channels are clipped (to avoid non-white highlights) so highlight recovery would not be possible on such data.

Thanks for the detailed reply.

I suspect the C200 also bakes in white balance, but could be wrong. Weird things happen when you change white balance while rolling.

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9 hours ago, tonysss said:

 

In this test I put side by side the original BMPCC and the new BMPCC4K. I used a Canon FD 24mm f/2.8 with a Canon FD Speedbooster and a variable Tiffen ND on both cameras. I shot CDNG 1080, 24p on the BMPCC (sharpness set to 0) and Blackmagic RAW 8:1 4K, 24p on the BMPCC4K. I edited and exported in a 4K timeline, so the original Pocket footage was upscaled. For the grading I used the Buttery Natural Rec709 LUT on both camera with some basic adjustments like contrast, tint and WB. Not a lot of people know, but if you shoot RAW on the original BMPCC, you have the option to switch from color science v1 to v4 in the RAW settings in DaVinci Resolve and that's exactly what I did before applying the LUT. Overall the two cameras are extremely close (there are differences in contrast, saturation and tint, but it's normal since they are two different sensors). In this video I matched them pretty well, but I could definitely see why some people (included me) believe that the original Pocket has something that is definitely missing in the BMPCC4K. I'm not entirely sure what it is, but the BMPCC has a more organic look and texture that reminds me a lot about the Alexa. Also, in the BMPCC4K, the skin tones tend to lean toward brown in some situations (the Natural Rec709 fixes in part this problem) and sometimes it's pretty annoying, where the original Pocket renders skin tones way better and in a more natural way. Still, the two cameras are incredibly close and they could definitely be used together in a variety of situations and of course the BMPCC4K is a way more usable, reliable and professional camera than the original one. Again, I really missed that filmic look and I think I'm gonna buy a BMPCC in the near future to use as a second camera and to shoot some more personal and cinematic projects. Finally, as you can see, it's very hard to tell the difference between a 4K camera and a good 1080 upscaled. Which is why I don't think resolution matters when it comes to image quality and that's why people have been shooting feature films on a 2K Arri Alexa.

~ Matteo Bertoli

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9 hours ago, MeanRevert said:

BTM, how is the device powered? 

Internal battery that is rechargeable by USB. 

Can also be powered by USB whilst charging.

9 hours ago, MeanRevert said:

And can this be worn on person like a watch? 

Don't be ridiculous.....

Of course it can :) 

1783872750_P4K_STICK003.thumb.jpg.b6989e8be3ef1cb9a57565e3f36188ce.jpg

Screen is bright daylight viewable as well.

Unlike the camera itself ;) 

5 hours ago, Snowfun said:

The Blackmagic logo includes orange so it would look particularly relevant. Especially in aluminium rather than plastic.

Yeah but their Orange is subtle.

This one is more Emergency Oh My God Press That To Set The Alarm Off type of an Orange.

I have a version that runs Leica cameras so that one will be in aluminium. And snakeskin. 

5 hours ago, Snowfun said:

Too much similarity to a Quality Street will however end in disaster.

There's seldom any similarity to anything remotely related to quality with anything I make so we are safe there !

 

 

NB For our American readers, Quality Street is the UK equivalent of your Sesame Street and features characters such as The Green Triangle and The Purple One.

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