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Andrew Reid

Canon EOS R5 / R6 overheating discussion all in one place

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Perhaps a car analogy along the lines of this is pertinent: If you put a 16 cylinder engine in a mini- be grateful you can go 300 MPH but crash and burn? But no-one else is doing it so its innovation?! It's ok because if you only press the accelerator 10% you won't crash. Theres really no point. You either have a bigger car for the engine or you put a smaller engine in the car. Or perhaps technology hasn't got to a point yet where the heat generation is low enough to design it the way Canon have- either way they knew what they were doing.

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It could be excusable for the R5. It’s a pro photo camera, 45MP, 8K, oversampling 4K, 4K120p. It’s beefy features in a small camera. It’s 8K! 4 times the information of 4K. Ok, it overheats. It takes processing power to a down sample the 8K to 4K. We get it.

Now the R6...

I think that thing has been crippled. 5K oversampled everything. Overheats, and worse doesn’t have a mode that doesn’t. 

It’s not like that hasn’t been done before. No excuses. A7III does 6K -> 4K24p with much more tolerable overheating limits. S1 can do it. Z6. GH5 does it with a sensor half the size but in a smaller body.

R6 can probably be fixed in firmware because it’s designed to sell more R5s.

It’s no wonder the narrative around the release was so tightly controlled while preorders were made. I guarantee Gerald Undone has been context by Canon and sent another camera because it must have been a lemon or one of those pre-production-but-not-pre-production-body-sample-bodies or whatever bullshit that Canon Ambassador was pulling. 

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3 minutes ago, Video Hummus said:

It’s not like that hasn’t been done before. No excuses. A7III does 6K -> 4K24p with much more tolerable overheating limits. S1 can do it. Z6. GH5 does it with a sensor half the size but in a smaller body.

R6 can probably be fixed in firmware because it’s designed to sell more R5s.

Probably not, because Canon uses  in-house manufactured chips on ancient technology/nanometer standards. That's why their sensor and codec performance always trailed the competition (particularly of big electronics manufacturers like Sony and Panasonic/Matsushita) in the past.

Now they're apparently overdriving their technology in a desperate attempt of trumping their competition on the spec sheet/feature list.

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Woah. That Gerald Undone tweet pretty much finished the R5 for me. Huge bummer. The 20 or 30 minute record limits are usable if they are predictable. But overheating just after the camera has been ON (not even recording) or taking 30 photos in an hour (which is basically nothing) is INSANE. That makes me concerned for photos too.

What if I'm a in a hot place for photography? If it gets to that overheat point and then want to shoot off that 12fps in photo mode, will that be affected? If the camera is already that hot? It's crazy to think so, but now I'm not sure.

With the S1H being a reliable workhorse and the A7sIII surely fixing Sony's overheating problem (if rumors are to be believed), Canon has really blown it here.

--

What Canon don't understand about filmmakers/videographers is that people like PACKAGES: a C300 with a gimbal B-Cam - OR An EVA-1 (or hopefully soon 2) with an S1(H)/GH5 B-Cam - OR A Sony FS7/X9 with A7sIII B-Cam. If they don't have a good or reliable B-Cam, then my package is ruined. Therefore I'll stick with Panasonic. And if Sony can fix their color and general image issues, I'll try that out too. 

Geeesh, Canon. We've been waiting five years for what thee R5/R6 promised and they blew it in the bottom of the 9th. 

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2 hours ago, Andrew Reid said:

 

Looks like somebody is flip flopping.

 

 

You are quoting my messages out of context days appart.... good for you. I have no pbm assuming the fact that I change my mind according to the new information coming in. Neither you and I tested the camera so we for now rely on others. 
15-20min max continuous recording in 4K120P was totally acceptable to me. 
The new information saying you cannot record 1 second after shooting 30 pictures is not acceptable. 

My first comment, based on your comment with information that was available at the time of posting and with the unrelevant exemples you posted  is still 100% valid. 

BTW you are the champion of flip flopping, how many times did I read an article here on EOS HD saying a camera is pure garebage, then you actually buy it use it and love it lol. And you know what that’s fine. As we say in French, only dumb people never change their mind. 🙂

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3 hours ago, Video Hummus said:

Maybe Panasonic would be willing to trade the S1H “fan technology” for DPAF. Fair trade!

That's not really a fair trade. I'd prefer to have an out-of-focus image to none at all. Bonus with the Pany- you can refocus it!

1 hour ago, wolf33d said:

As we say in French, only dumb people never change their mind.

"Il n'y a que des cons qui ne change jamais d'avis." Je suis d'accord!

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3 hours ago, Oliver Daniel said:

My R5 pre-order is 0.1% away from a very sad death. 

Just imagining a scenario when you turn up to shoot, the client says "would you mind getting a few stills for us first before the slo-mos?", and you're like "erm... where's the nearest fridge?"

Haha. Yeah it's just not worth the humiliation is it!!

I was all set to order one as well but it just isn't worth the agro. Overheating, rolling shutter on Sony A6300 I could about stomach back in 2016 for £1200. But with a £4100 camera? No thanks.

In fact the problem is far worse on the EOS R5 and R6 because the A6300 you could at least take stills with for hours without killing the 4K recording!

There are other issues I don't like either - the rolling shutter and file sizes aren't very practical at all in some modes.

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2 hours ago, wolf33d said:

You are quoting my messages out of context days appart.... good for you. I have no pbm assuming the fact that I change my mind according to the new information coming in. Neither you and I tested the camera so we for now rely on others. 
15-20min max continuous recording in 4K120P was totally acceptable to me. 
The new information saying you cannot record 1 second after shooting 30 pictures is not acceptable. 

My first comment, based on your comment with information that was available at the time of posting and with the unrelevant exemples you posted  is still 100% valid. 

BTW you are the champion of flip flopping, how many times did I read an article here on EOS HD saying a camera is pure garebage, then you actually buy it use it and love it lol. And you know what that’s fine. As we say in French, only dumb people never change their mind. 🙂

It's so frustrating this group lesson with the slowest in the class sometimes.

I should not even reply to the bait!

I am being attacking for a car analogy?!

Relax.

What I said:

"Let’s assume that Apple released a smartphone for $1000 (the EOS R6 costs $2500) aimed at the high-end of the consumer market, which turns off regularly throughout a normal day’s use due to an overheating processor. That is a class action lawsuit and recall.

If we assume Toyota makes a high performance car, which has an engine that overheats 20 minutes into a journey on the autobahn at 120mph, that is a product unfit for purpose and it would have to go back to the dealer."

Or to put it another way, if VW bring out a car advertised with low emissions at X level, then when you use it is much worse, that is also consumer class action lawsuit territory.

You may not like that and may want to buy the EOS R5 anyway but don't come attacking me for it. I didn't design the camera did I!??!

I said numerous times before Gerald showed us by using the actual camera that the 20 minutes or however many minutes advertised will vary massively and is unpredictable, and impossible to plan a shoot around.

I would have shown you this with an actual camera as well.

It is a bit difficult to show you without one.

But does that make it any less true?

No.

If you disagree so much with what I'm saying, at least disagree in a respectful way with evidence to change my mind.

That should be your next post by the way.

Not some gibberish personal nonsense.

 

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11 minutes ago, Andrew Reid said:

Haha. Yeah it's just not worth the humiliation is it!!

I was all set to order one as well but it just isn't worth the agro. Overheating, rolling shutter on Sony A6300 I could about stomach back in 2016 for £1200. But with a £4100 camera? No thanks.

In fact the problem is far worse on the EOS R5 and R6 because the A6300 you could at least take stills with for hours without killing the 4K recording!

There are other issues I don't like either - the rolling shutter and file sizes aren't very practical at all in some modes.

 

Of course there’s a lot to like, but some very very  serious caveats for video shooters....


1. Overheating while just turned on and doing nothing.

2. Forced to use lower quality 4k on a camera you’re buying for oversampled 4k.

3. 4k120 file sizes are absolutely huge. 

4. H265 10bit codec impossible to edit natively. 

5. Pretty much forced to record externally to avoid missed shots. 

6. RF lenses cost is astronomical. 

7. Jello in 2020. Still. 

I’m actually very surprised at how little attention the Youtubers (besides Gerald) have given these shortcomings. It’s because it’s the GRAIL camera, isn’t it? 

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11 minutes ago, Oliver Daniel said:

Of course there’s a lot to like

Yeah, absolutely. It seemed like Canon turned a corner.

Quote

1. Overheating while just turned on and doing nothing.

Yes the 8K sensor readout only works if you start from cold. I.e. room temperature around 23 degrees C maximum.

4K from 8K sensor should be doable in 2020.

In 2014 for $1500 let's remind ourselves that 4K from 7K was a thing on Samsung NX1.

And in H.265 too.

I am curious to see if you can record oversampled 4K 24p in 8bit to SD card on the EOS R5 and R6, and whether this takes some load away from the image processor. SD cards don't get as hot as CFExpress. 8bit H.264 is way less CPU intensive than 10bit encoding (H.265).

I'd rather have that than pixel binned 10bit.

Problem is, I don't think C-LOG is available in 8bit mode?

Quote

2. Forced to use lower quality 4k on a camera you’re buying for oversampled 4k.

Yeah, if we pay the extra, we expect to use it.

Quote

3. 4k120 file sizes are absolutely huge. 

At least they are going to be very short bursts of slow-mo.

Still, why are they so large? Isn't it conformed in-camera to a regular frame rate? 200Mbit would have been enough.

Instead I think the encoder has to use ALL-I with very light compression, as anything more complex at 4K/120fps would melt the camera even more.

Quote

4. H265 10bit codec impossible to edit natively. 

10bit 422 H.265 is a total nightmare.

This is why certain Fuji or Panasonic cameras go for 10bit 4:2:0 in H.265.

Or in some cases 10bit 4:2:2 in H.264

Quote

5. Pretty much forced to record externally to avoid missed shots.

Gerald did an external recorder test too and the camera sensor overheated at one point. Complete shut down.

Quote

6. RF lenses cost is astronomical. 

Yep. And they are enormous.

If you thought the 85mm F1.2L EF was big and heavy, the 85mm F1.2L RF is even bigger. WHY?! Mirrorless lenses are a golden opportunity to reduce sizes and weight.

Quote

7. Jello in 2020. Still.

Yeah, and in all the most practical file size modes!

Quote

I’m actually very surprised at how little attention the Youtubers (besides Gerald) have given these shortcomings. It’s because it’s the GRAIL camera, isn’t it? 

Don't criticise the JESUS camera.

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I realize this camera could be a winner for photographers and garbage for some video shooters. For me however, it's in the middle. The R5 is definitely a Better EOS R with Superb Autofocus, dual cards slot, 45 MP, up to 1080P 120 (future firmware update hopefully) and un-cropped but low quality 4k (NON HQ). But for $3899 ? Makes no sense. May be for $2899 this would still be ok-ish..

It does not make sense to pay $4k for a camera that was advertised as a filmmakers tool for pro use which can't even shoot 1 min of 4k HQ after some moderate use. If A7iii, Z6 and other full frame cameras can do oversampled 4k without overheating, then surely it's not unreasonable to expect a $4000 camera to do at least 4k24p HQ without overheating. 

8K | 4k 60FPS | 4k 120 FPS | All for 15 - 20 mins mins is OK. Thank you Canon for adding these feature and making them avail to us for some use.  But 4k 24p HQ for only 15-20 mins and overheating even in this mode ??  HELL NO! 

For all the people who are saying to shoot video get a cine cam, or you're a noob if you don't have two cameras and etc - Look, the Sony a7iii, Z6, S1 can all do High Quality 4k 24p without any overheating issues. Even to use this as a B-CAM it needs to be reliable. That's all I need, a camera that is reliable to use in the field. Not something that I'm constantly worried about overheating for using a feature i.e. 4k HQ, that it was advertised to do. 

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Dear forum community,

that's the first time I write, I rarely do that, but I've been reading here for years. I am very impressed by the honest opinion here. Andrew, your expertise in XT-3 made me switch from Nikon to Fuji.
The particularly good video properties have drawn my attention to Canon in the past few weeks. But that's really a thing now. If I understand that correctly, is it less the limited recording time in higher video qualities of the cold camera that is criticized, but the strong recording restrictions after shut off due to overheating?

What about the XT-4?

The question should not bypass the topic, I know it is about the Canon R5 / R6. Tony Nortrup has already pointed out that the Xt-4 overheats faster in 4K 60p than the R5 / R6, especially in direct sunlight.
There is already an overheating comparision between XT-3 and XT 4, in which the XT 4 overheats a bit faster than the XT-3 due to IBIS and Dual Record on SD card. 
If I have my XT-3 recorded at room temperature in 4K 60p (a clip is a maximum of 20 minutes), the camera switches off after about 30 minutes. Then I let it cool down for about 5-6 minutes (without opening or removing anything) and then I can roll on. But I haven't tested how long is is possible. I actually want to exchange all my XT-3s for Xt4s.

Andrew, do you still have your XT-4? Do you know how long it has to cool down and how long it can resume afterwards? Or anyone else?Unfortunately, neither Tony Northrup nor the other testers I could find say anything about it. It would be good for everyone to know if the problems that obviously exist with the two new Canon cameras would also apply to the XT-4?

Thank you so much!
Bastian

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I just notified the camera store I won't be picking up the R5 this week as planned.  I will wait to see what's Canon next move will be before buying the R5.

I glad I found this article before picking up the R5.  Saved me a lot of time and headaches. 

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The comments on dpreview Canon forum on the R5/6 are predictable enough.

Including:

+ Reviewers just don't like Canon generally (Gerald Undone who tweeted about no video after 1 hour stills usage, praised Canon C line as 'outstanding')

+ Covid means there's not much content around so overheating is overblown (there's never been more content around as everybody is stuck at home with nothing else to do!)

+ Discussing their own cooling solutions (leaf blower on set? could work)

Talk about a denial being a river in Egypt.

 

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2 hours ago, Andrew Reid said:

I said numerous times before Gerald showed us by using the actual camera that the 20 minutes or however many minutes advertised will vary massively and is unpredictable, and impossible to plan a shoot around.

I think the opening for the class action is that in the overheating chart they don’t mention anything about using the camera taking pictures would affect video recording by times.

We don’t find the video recording and temperature limits shocking. Canon disclosed of them in that chart.

What is shocking is that using it has a stills camera, even just mildly, will affect the video recording. That is not disclosed in that chart and goes against the expected behavior of the product and almost every other competing product in its class.

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