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the BM 12K for S16. Is this the new S16 cam we all need


JimJones
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Surprised no one is talking about what the 12K BM cam means to S16 lenses.

6K S16 on a digital RGB sensor seems like a HUGE thing to me. The frame rates on the S16 crop are icing on the cake.

 

There are a fair few S16 enthusiasts out there with a good selection of S16 PL mount lenses. Seems like this camera could be a game changer for them.

Thoughts?

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2 hours ago, Yurolov said:

Just get a digital bolex. You don't need this for s16. 

The original idea to use a S16 camera was the lower cost and the flexibility to perform shoots with a small camera, the French filmmakers take these cameras to the streets in places where  35mm camera were too much difficult to operate, and that was the spirit until the rise of the digital era, now we have very small cameras which can be used exactly like S16 cameras use to be in the past. The digital bolex keep that original intention, a small and very easy to use camera which can be used in extreme situations and places, where the only limit is filmmaker imagination. The BM is clearly not a good choice for a S16 camera, it's a bigger camera, heavier, will have a lot of limitations compared to a digital bolex, there is no a good reason to get this camera to do S16, the only reason I will use a camera so big like this to do S16 is because of it is a film camera, yes, an old and beautiful original film camera, which by the way I have, and I use to do some documentary, I only have like 12 minutes to shoot for each roll, but what you get for all the effort is worth. This new BM camera is oriented to be operated by a crew, to compite in that segment with RED, not for an independent creator, sure you will see some crazy guy running with this brick in his shoulders and telling to the world is the best camera for run and gun, but we all know the best performance for this kind of cameras can only be achieved with a crew, even a smaller crew will make a huge difference.

No need to try to justified this camera as the perfect tool for every scenario, it is what it is, it is too expensive for individuals, it is oriented for crew work to compite with RED cameras. It will find his place in the market for sure, if you have a small production company probably this camera is the perfect tool, I can see the point to get it for some people, but probably most companies will stay using RED and ALEXA just because of when the customer is on set he is expecting to see that kind of cameras filming his commercial. Time will tell. 

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IDK.......

 

It may not work for YOU but it may be just the ticket for others.

 

I can see this being a great tool for wildlife doco's using S16 lenses. On a tripod in a hide sitting and waiting for days at a time for THE shot.  I have a very nice selection of S16 glass in PL, ......Angénieux , Canon.  Some of the S16 lenses have impressive reach for thier size - S16 lenses really help when you have to hump all that gear into the bush. 6K @120 fps down scaled to 4K. Whats not to love? A long S16 lens shot at 6K - this allows for re-framing and punching in with a 4K delivery - if I need that. I f I dont I can just down scale to 4K. If I need 220 fps I just shoot at 4K. I see this camera as an exciting enabler.

4/6K from an RGB digital sensor seems to give S16 glass a new lease on life. And those frame rates...where exactly do you get that on S16 other then here ???

OK so you have no use case.......good for you. But to exhibit such a small mind to say this is just no good for S16....hmmmm, ok then fella...if you say so. You keep believing that while the rest of us explore what we can do with our high end S16 glass and 220 fps @4K. A game changer I would say. A TRUE game changer. I can see the price of S16 glass going up because of this, much like the effect the BMPCC  had on S16 glass some years ago. Before the BMPCC, S16 glass could be had for little. Not now. Looks like history may repeat here.

Its going to be interesting to see how this pans out.

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2 hours ago, hijodeibn said:

The original idea to use a S16 camera was the lower cost and the flexibility to perform shoots with a small camera, the French filmmakers take these cameras to the streets in places where  35mm camera were too much difficult to operate, and that was the spirit until the rise of the digital era, now we have very small cameras which can be used exactly like S16 cameras use to be in the past. The digital bolex keep that original intention, a small and very easy to use camera which can be used in extreme situations and places, where the only limit is filmmaker imagination. The BM is clearly not a good choice for a S16 camera, it's a bigger camera, heavier, will have a lot of limitations compared to a digital bolex, there is no a good reason to get this camera to do S16, the only reason I will use a camera so big like this to do S16 is because of it is a film camera, yes, an old and beautiful original film camera, which by the way I have, and I use to do some documentary, I only have like 12 minutes to shoot for each roll, but what you get for all the effort is worth. This new BM camera is oriented to be operated by a crew, to compite in that segment with RED, not for an independent creator, sure you will see some crazy guy running with this brick in his shoulders and telling to the world is the best camera for run and gun, but we all know the best performance for this kind of cameras can only be achieved with a crew, even a smaller crew will make a huge difference.

No need to try to justified this camera as the perfect tool for every scenario, it is what it is, it is too expensive for individuals, it is oriented for crew work to compite with RED cameras. It will find his place in the market for sure, if you have a small production company probably this camera is the perfect tool, I can see the point to get it for some people, but probably most companies will stay using RED and ALEXA just because of when the customer is on set he is expecting to see that kind of cameras filming his commercial. Time will tell. 

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35 minutes ago, JimJones said:

IDK.......

 

It may not work for YOU but it may be just the ticket for others.

 

I can see this being a great tool for wildlife doco's using S16 lenses. On a tripod in a hide sitting and waiting for days at a time for THE shot.  I have a very nice selection of S16 glass in PL, ......Angénieux , Canon.  Some of the S16 lenses have impressive reach for thier size - S16 lenses really help when you have to hump all that gear into the bush. 6K @120 fps down scaled to 4K. Whats not to love? A long S16 lens shot at 6K - this allows for re-framing and punching in with a 4K delivery - if I need that. I f I dont I can just down scale to 4K. If I need 220 fps I just shoot at 4K. I see this camera as an exciting enabler.

4/6K from an RGB digital sensor seems to give S16 glass a new lease on life. And those frame rates...where exactly do you get that on S16 other then here ???

OK so you have no use case.......good for you. But to exhibit such a small mind to say this is just no good for S16....hmmmm, ok then fella...if you say so. You keep believing that while the rest of us explore what we can do with our high end S16 glass and 220 fps @4K. A game changer I would say. A TRUE game changer. I can see the price of S16 glass going up because of this, much like the effect the BMPCC  had on S16 glass some years ago. Before the BMPCC, S16 glass could be had for little. Not now. Looks like history may repeat here.

Its going to be interesting to see how this pans out.

Again, it is not a camera to be used by creative/artist people of the S16 world, can it be used for a very specific area as you said "wildlife doco's"?, probably, good for you if this is the ideal tool in your eyes, it is going to be a game changer for S16 glass?, not even close, the revolution that S16 glass had years ago was because of BMPCC cameras were very cheap and available for everybody, so you get this cheap camera, get the cheap S16 glass, and you are ready for what usually cost you two or three time that money. This camera is $10K, no more than two or three guys here are going to buy it, you most probably are not going to buy it, it is too expensive, sorry dude, this revolution is never going to happen, and you still can get good S16 glass at very good prices, just last year I bough three S16 canons very cheap. I have been using S16 film cameras since 2011, and the only S16 digital camera I was ever interested was the digital bolex, because of its MOJO.    

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So you have no use for 120 6K or 220 fps 4K ? OK then.......

You have no need of S16 with a base ISO of 800 ?... OK then......

We shall have to see what this new sensor tech brings but here,s hoping we can get something close to the F35 look. You wanna talk about mojo....the F35 is the king of the hill on that one. But that may be more a CCD thing which both the F35 and the Digital Bolex had. I agree - the CCD look was lovely. Time will tell us what this sensor delivers. At this stage its sounding very positive.

Hmmm 10K is too expensive in your world?... OK then.

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Actually the BMD Ursa Broadcast is known as an excellent S16 camera, and lots of people use it for that. Tristan Pemberton in Australia has been using it for a few years now with the "Hurt Locker" lens (Canon 8-64mm T2.4 PL zoom); I've seen a few other people say they've been using this combo, including on films shot for BBC. I haven't seen any actual examples though. The Ursa Broadcast doesn't have this amazing new sensor of the Ursa 12K, but it's a fraction of the cost and recently gained a lot of new features (including BRAW) in a firmware update.

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I believe both sides can coexist and even complement each other. A diversity of POVs should not hurt. Why this must always tend to be polarized?!

Revolutionary, your mileage may vary and that's not exactly a 16mm form factor at same time, all concur and don't exclude each other. Hard to get? : -)

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33 minutes ago, bjohn said:

Actually the BMD Ursa Broadcast is known as an excellent S16 camera, and lots of people use it for that. Tristan Pemberton in Australia has been using it for a few years now with the "Hurt Locker" lens (Canon 8-64mm T2.4 PL zoom); I've seen a few other people say they've been using this combo, including on films shot for BBC. I haven't seen any actual examples though. The Ursa Broadcast doesn't have this amazing new sensor of the Ursa 12K, but it's a fraction of the cost and recently gained a lot of new features (including BRAW) in a firmware update.

For more info on the Ursa Broadcast as a S16 camera, see this: https://www.provideocoalition.com/hidden-flexibility-of-blackmagics-ursa-broadcast-a-s16mm-camera/

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4 hours ago, JimJones said:

So you have no use for 120 6K or 220 fps 4K ? OK then.......

You have no need of S16 with a base ISO of 800 ?... OK then......

We shall have to see what this new sensor tech brings but here,s hoping we can get something close to the F35 look. You wanna talk about mojo....the F35 is the king of the hill on that one. But that may be more a CCD thing which both the F35 and the Digital Bolex had. I agree - the CCD look was lovely. Time will tell us what this sensor delivers. At this stage its sounding very positive.

Hmmm 10K is too expensive in your world?... OK then.

$10K is too much expensive for 99.9% of the people in this forum, if you are one of the two or three guys who has the money to buy it, good for you, probably is the camera you have been waiting all this time....for the rest of us is just another new toy for medium/big size productions or rich boys, we will never have the money to buy it, and in my case, I have plenty other options that I will choose before this camera, certainly this camera will have its market, that for sure, but for the indie/solo shooter is not going to be the first option.

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I have watched this conversation play out over all the Canon R5 and now BM 12K threads, where one side gets excited and says it's great for their use-case and the other side says its ridiculous because the use-case isn't common / it doesn't align with their experience / it's too expensive / the data rates are too high / etc.

I think one thing is missing here, which is to talk about budget and the state of the art.

The state of the art in cameras is actually quite limited, and there are very very many situations where you can't get more for your money even if you had it.

Here's an example...

I make home videos and I want a small setup that won't attract attention going into parks, museums, aquariums, etc, and I like IBIS.  I use my GH5 for this, but it has limitations.  I would like extra DR.  I would like a 12-bit mode.  I would like dual-ISO.  I would like a bunch of things, but I can't have them.  At any price.  If I was a multi-millionaire, I still can't have them.

Think of how many people lament the Canon offerings, and want a set of features that is not available in any Canon camera, regardless of price.

Think of how many people would love the P4K or P6K or URSA but are put off by the reliability or QC.

Hollywood has embraced the Alexa Mini form-factor because it is portable / flexible / light-weight to the point that it enables creativity that had not previously been possible with their heavier models.  This is because none of the previous models offered the combination of features that the Mini offers.  At any price.
Big Hollywood productions don't care how much a camera costs, they rent for a very small percentage of their production costs.  If a camera cost double and did the job then great.  Triple? No problems.

This is how I see the BM 12K and Canon R5 cameras, and many others.  They offer a combination of features that previously could not be had at any price.

So, if you own a collection of S16 lenses and want to shoot 6K or at high-framerates that was previously not available at any price then why is this so completely ridiculous a concept?

I think that @JimJones enthusiasm might make it sound like the whole cinema world will implode because of this, but of course it won't, and neither did it implode when the BMPCC 2K first came out, but it sure imploded if you were a fan of tiny cameras and shooting with older lenses.

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Cause with all due respect it isn't a good idea. He mentions wildlife being a use case but for wildlife it would be so much better just using crisp EF glass than vintage s16 lenses. How long does s16 glass even get?

No, I'm sorry; if you have the glass, fine. Otherwise, I don't see why anyone would purchase for this reason. I doubt ONE person will buy s16 glass to use with this camera.

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