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Andrew Reid

Canon EOS R5 8K monster official topic

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3 hours ago, gt3rs said:

You could do also another list for Canon DSLR regarding video:

- First having FullHD DSLR

- First having 4k DSLR

- First having a usable video AF

- First having 4k 60p DSLR

- First having ND filter adapter 

- First having FF RAW DSLR

- First having 8K DSLR

- First having FF 4k 120 DSLR

But I agree they never really went all in for video features until the 1Dx III.... and pricing was always all over the place.

I think this year is a big turnaround with C500 II, C300 III, 1Dx III that they really did not cripple or try to protect things so I have less of a problem guessing that R5 will not be intentionally crippled. It will have limitation but mostly due to HW than intentional.

.

Agreed. As we've seen time and time again with Magic Lantern, every camera is far more capable than original spec. If the ancient 50d can shoot raw video, certainly cameras with modern hardware are far more capable. I get the frustration with the way Canon has operated before the 1dx3 because so many of us got into DSLR video with the 5d2 and the updates have been lethargic while others have created far better spec'd cameras. But Sony has yet to give us one Alpha camera that does 10-bit, or 4k60p when the 1dx2 has been doing it for 4 years. The cripple hammer clearly swings both ways.

The sleeping giant has awaken. It will be interesting to see how others respond. Will Panasonic finally stop pretending PDAF doesn't exist? Will Sony do anything other than the same 8-bit 4:2:0 video they've been rolling for the last five years below the FS/FX line? Will Fuji go raw? Will Olympus stop rehashing cameras from 2016 and actually create something new? Will Nikon get their shit together?

Even if you don't care about 8k raw (I don't and I'm still planning on getting the R5) and prefer to bash the R5 with speculation about limitations, its a significant achievement in this class (or any class) of camera. So what if it only does it for 5 minutes, or just 90 seconds, with those data rates you aren't shooting a 3 hour wedding anyway - and there's still nothing anywhere near the R5 from anyone. It still does 10-bit 4:2:2 internal FF 8k video and 4k120p with DPAF - which I'm sure people will find something to bitch about once footage is in the wild.

The tide isn't just rising, they've created a tsunami. We will all benefit as this forces everyone to push the envelope or get slammed with endless cripple hammer comments - prepare for lots of "if Canon can do it..." with every new release. Its surreal how they've flipped the script, but the R5 is the first true game changer I've seen since the a7r2 was released in 2015.

Chris

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EOSHD Pro Color for Sony cameras EOSHD Pro LOG for Sony CamerasEOSHD C-LOG and Film Profiles for All Canon DSLRs
5 minutes ago, Trek of Joy said:

Even if you don't care about 8k raw (I don't and I'm still planning on getting the R5) and prefer to bash the R5 with speculation about limitations, its a significant achievement in this class (or any class) of camera. So what if it only does it for 5 minutes, or just 90 seconds, with those data rates you aren't shooting a 3 hour wedding anyway - and there's still nothing anywhere near the R5 from anyone. It still does 10-bit 4:2:2 internal FF 8k video and 4k120p with DPAF - which I'm sure people will find something to bitch about once footage is in the wild.

The tide isn't just rising, they've created a tsunami. We will all benefit as this forces everyone to push the envelope or get slammed with endless cripple hammer comments - prepare for lots of "if Canon can do it..." with every new release. Its surreal how they've flipped the script, but the R5 is the first true game changer I've seen since the a7r2 was released in 2015.

Chris

Pretty much all this, but we'll see of course. 

You can always argue but they haven't done it before. Look at Panasonic though. Their line was pretty basic up until the GH5 where suddenly you get 10 bit internal, 4k 60p. Of course Blackmagic steps up and throws down a $1000 dollar RAW shooting camera with 4k up to 60p not too long after. Fuji puts out the XT3 with S35 4k 60p 10 bit, Panasonic rolls out full frame 10 bit 4k. 

If Canon wants to stay in the game they have to do more and clearly they are. The 1DX MK3 is no joke and neither will this camera be. 8k 10 bit RAW is nothing to joke about regardless of what it is. 

I don't think it makes the S1H irrelevant but it certainly will give Panasonic something to think about and maybe even more so Sony who is way behind at this point. I expect to see Sony come up with some surprises, I think they have been waiting. 

Regardless it will be very interesting to see everything that comes out. I am really happy with my XT3 still. People are complaining about the S1H not having punch in focus while recording, the XT3 has had that from day 1. 

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2 hours ago, thebrothersthre3 said:

I don't think it makes the S1H irrelevant but it certainly will give Panasonic something to think about and maybe even more so Sony who is way behind at this point. I expect to see Sony come up with some surprises, I think they have been waiting. 

Yeah indeed, it already leaked. There is a hidden cheat code to enable 10-bit RAW and 4.2.2 H.265 on the Sony A7III.  Quickly press MENU-C3-Fn-DISP-AEL-C3-C3 to enable it!

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The R5 doesn't make any camera irrelevant, IMO its just raising the bar. Competition is good, no matter what you shoot the next gen cameras across the board will have to step up. Sony certainly has the hardware, the a9 could have been a video beast with that insanely fast readout and its incredible AF. But it didn't even get pic profiles. If you're planning on buying a camera in the next year or so, I get the feeling there will me more of these crazy specs that would have been unthinkable before Monday's R5 bombshell. If the #1 camera maker is pushing raw at the enthusiast level, the rest are going to follow. We won't see a lot of 8k, but more 6k or 4k120p seems a given now. 

I was so close to getting a S1/S1H, but the way I work reliable AF is must have. I spent a few hours in B&H tinkering with every camera available a few months ago, it was clear Sony and Canon were better suited to my needs. I'm slightly far sighted and shoot in the searing Florida sun daily, for me just tapping the LCD or moving the focus point with a joystick to track a subject or rack focus makes my life a lot easier. After shooting with the various a7's, the XT3 and the EOS R - the DPAF is easily my favorite, hence my move to Canon. As always YMMV.

Chris

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22 minutes ago, Avenger 2.0 said:

Yeah indeed, it already leaked. There is a hidden cheat code to enable 10-bit RAW and 4.2.2 H.265 on the Sony A7III.  Quickly press MENU-C3-Fn-DISP-AEL-C3-C3 to enable it!

That just makes mine boot Grant Theft Auto!

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17 hours ago, gt3rs said:

You could do also another list for Canon DSLR regarding video:

- First having FullHD DSLR

Correct! 5D Mark II was a bomb.

17 hours ago, gt3rs said:

- First having 4k DSLR

Correct! But they wanted $15k initially for the 1D C and the ergonomics were unchanged from a 1D X.

When the Panasonic GH4 and Samsung NX1 came out 2 years later, these cost under $1500 and were designed from the ground up for video shooting. EVFs, mirrorless lens mounts, articulated screens, H.265, 120fps mode (on NX1), XLR add on (GH4), it's a long list of features... all missing from Canon's 4K DSLR.

17 hours ago, gt3rs said:

- First having a usable video AF

Yes but in a 70D, which had an absolutely crap image even by 2013 standards.

17 hours ago, gt3rs said:

- First having 4k 60p DSLR

Not really. Panasonic GH5 & mirrorless got their first. DSLRs were very late to 4K/60p.

17 hours ago, gt3rs said:

- First having ND filter adapter

Nope. Third party ones existed way before.

17 hours ago, gt3rs said:

- First having FF RAW DSLR

Magic Lantern? ;)

17 hours ago, gt3rs said:

- First having 8K DSLR

R5 is not a DSLR but yeah, I'll give Canon this. Let's see how many weeks they are first by, if A7S III pops up next month they may not be first to the market. Depends on the actual release dates in shops.

17 hours ago, gt3rs said:

- First having FF 4k 120 DSLR

Seems that way, but again let's see what Sony's reply will be.

17 hours ago, gt3rs said:

But I agree they never really went all in for video features until the 1Dx III.... and pricing was always all over the place.

The problem was not so much the pricing. It was the delivery of so many crappy mushy moire ridden compressed to hell 1080p line skipping cameras for much of the decade that was the problem.

They didn't really have an affordable 4K solution until nearly 5 years after the 1D C came out!

It's well documented on this blog. Then when the 1D X Mark II, 5D IV and EOS R came out, all had seriously frustrating shortcomings for 4K shooting and none of them surpassed the image quality or less severe crop factor of the 1D C. At least the EOS R ditched MJPEG... that's something (8 years too late but still something).

 

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38 minutes ago, Andrew Reid said:

 

Not really. Panasonic GH5 & mirrorless got their first. DSLRs were very late to 4K/60p.

 

Did you forget the 1Dx mark 2 came before the GH5???

By a full year.

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14 hours ago, Trek of Joy said:

Agreed. As we've seen time and time again with Magic Lantern, every camera is far more capable than original spec. If the ancient 50d can shoot raw video, certainly cameras with modern hardware are far more capable. I get the frustration with the way Canon has operated before the 1dx3 because so many of us got into DSLR video with the 5d2 and the updates have been lethargic while others have created far better spec'd cameras. But Sony has yet to give us one Alpha camera that does 10-bit, or 4k60p when the 1dx2 has been doing it for 4 years. The cripple hammer clearly swings both ways.

The sleeping giant has awaken. It will be interesting to see how others respond. Will Panasonic finally stop pretending PDAF doesn't exist? Will Sony do anything other than the same 8-bit 4:2:0 video they've been rolling for the last five years below the FS/FX line? Will Fuji go raw? Will Olympus stop rehashing cameras from 2016 and actually create something new? Will Nikon get their shit together?

Even if you don't care about 8k raw (I don't and I'm still planning on getting the R5) and prefer to bash the R5 with speculation about limitations, its a significant achievement in this class (or any class) of camera. So what if it only does it for 5 minutes, or just 90 seconds, with those data rates you aren't shooting a 3 hour wedding anyway - and there's still nothing anywhere near the R5 from anyone. It still does 10-bit 4:2:2 internal FF 8k video and 4k120p with DPAF - which I'm sure people will find something to bitch about once footage is in the wild.

The tide isn't just rising, they've created a tsunami. We will all benefit as this forces everyone to push the envelope or get slammed with endless cripple hammer comments - prepare for lots of "if Canon can do it..." with every new release. Its surreal how they've flipped the script, but the R5 is the first true game changer I've seen since the a7r2 was released in 2015.

Chris

To be fair to Panasonic, haven't there been rumblings that they're being locked out of use of PDAF by Sony as part of using their sensors? I know I've seen that rumor tossed around here before, but I have no clue how valid that information actually is. Either way, yes, we're definitely reaching a point where Panasonic will need to start working on developing a proper PDAF system for their cameras and lenses ASAP. 

I could totally see Fuji implementing some form of RAW in their future cameras, in order to keep up with the competition. Though seeing as how they're not even really participating in the world of Full Frame, I'm curious to see if they'll wait until either Canon or Sony bring this sort of R5 specs to an APS-C camera first or if they'll try to get there first to keep up with their efforts to appeal to video-centric customers.

Actually, speaking of Fuji and their lack of interest in developing a FF camera, maybe the R5, S1H (and a possible Sony A7sIII I suppose) might lead them to try and develop a more budget friendly successor to their GFX100 camera as a Medium Format videography-centered option? Maybe develop a 5.5K Raw Medium Format camera to try and get ahead of the rest of the competition when MF becomes more affordable to sell commonly?

Personally speaking, I've been debating between upgrading from my Panasonic G85 to a Fuji XT3/XT4 or a Panasonic S1H for awhile now- but the Canon R5 definitely feels like a big declaration of a shift on what to expect from hybrid mirrorless cameras as we move into the new decade. So now I'm left wondering if I should keep waiting to see how the rest of the companies respond to the R5? Hell, I'm sure I'll be keeping an eye on the R5 too in order see what issues that camera might have (i.e. overheating, bad rolling shutter).

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The XT3 is just so affordable. The Viltrox 33mm 1.4 just came out for $275. I really hope Fuji continues to innovate. I really don't give a damn about full frame and the C300 MK3 just made me realize that completely. Get that kind of dynamic range(even in just a h265 codec) in one of Fuji's cameras and I'll be happy for life.

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I may have missed it, but is it just a waiting game right now before we see some hands on stuff?? Have they given an official date for when hands on / footage can be seen? Or are we just waiting with no date in sight?

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What's the go with all these Youtube videos with youtubers getting all excited about 8K RAW? I mean most of them don't even deliver Youtube in 4K, let alone 8K... Are all these people paid by Canon or what? I mean there isn't even any footage out there yet! hahaha.

R5 sounds like a great camera, don't get me wrong, but 8K RAW is a moot point for most people out there, even those who actually make films for a living. I'm really keen to see what the R6 delivers, R5 just seems like unnecessary overkill for my uses (I shoot for a living).

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10 hours ago, tweak said:

What's the go with all these Youtube videos with youtubers getting all excited about 8K RAW? I mean most of them don't even deliver Youtube in 4K, let alone 8K... Are all these people paid by Canon or what? I mean there isn't even any footage out there yet! hahaha.

R5 sounds like a great camera, don't get me wrong, but 8K RAW is a moot point for most people out there, even those who actually make films for a living. I'm really keen to see what the R6 delivers, R5 just seems like unnecessary overkill for my uses (I shoot for a living).

From the 1DX III, full sensor RAW video looks to be truly amazing, we already know the bitrate will be a new record (but the H.265 should be a lot lower)
The main question is how bad the rolling shutter is going to be. The crop factors, record limits are really critism over a vast amount of great specs around a camera that has all the bases well-covered. It seems very powerful and may not cost over 4000$ as they want to sell it to the "5D-class" users, even if they don't use video at all.

I think it is not a feature most people are going to use, but it helps with staying relevant for a long time, it is a glimpse into the future, where media is cheaper and it is easier to process. In the past, people were stunned, when they saw prints from image frames taken out of a 1DC, cropped 4K with 8-bit 4:2:2 MJPEG, the standard CF cards were ridiculously expensive then (as well as the camera itself), now we have 8K with a RAW codec with AF and other goodies for many times less. That's progress. 
Other point is exclusivity, it's not not expected from other manufacturers. Because to match this, other manufacturers basically have to copy it (which they don't tend to do, they all stick to their own formulas and model lines, etc), it does need the exact same number of megapixels and it makes the most sense on the FF category as well, on a smaller sensor it seems like a bigger compromise, and the ecosystem of medium format options is too small at this point, EF is still the biggest and it's perfectly integrated.

I am afraid the R6 will be crippled regarding video to keep it "safe" from the 5D-level of cameras, so it won't be a direct competitor to an A7III or A7IV, it will be better in some ways and worse in others.

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How the hell they go from cropped 4K 30p 4:2:0 8bit and 1080p/60p to 8K/4K 120p 4:2:2 10 bit to RAW??

It is like suddenly they found some ancient alien artifact under the Pyramids.

This is my last comment of these mythical Canon's; I will be waiting for the official releases/video tests, but I am very curious how they pulled off the trick of the century..

I hope R6 will be good enough, I do not want to spend much on a hybrid. 

 

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I don’t think it’s a matter of figuring of the tech. It was canon’s internal and market strategies that delayed the features that are now released. Just like apple, which is always many months ahead. And just like Sony. 

In very short order, Sony will drop something similar. They already were close to a complete camera with the A7III. 

 

 

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5 hours ago, padam said:

I am afraid the R6 will be crippled regarding video to keep it "safe" from the 5D-level of cameras, so it won't be a direct competitor to an A7III or A7IV, it will be better in some ways and worse in others.

"Crippled" like the S1 compared to the S1H? The rumors suggest 4k60, ibis, two card slots... If that's without RAW but with C-Log and AF in 10bit for 2000$, I'd buy two of those before a 4000$ R5. Or... just one R6, but stay in business 😂

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9 minutes ago, Michi said:

"Crippled" like the S1 compared to the S1H? The rumors suggest 4k60, ibis, two card slots... If that's without RAW but with C-Log and AF in 10bit for 2000$, I'd buy two of those before a 4000$ R5. Or... just one R6, but stay in business 😂

The S1 series are permanently crippled with their AF and lens ecosystem which have to be priced high because they will hardly sell any of them (besides the size of the camera body, but they've promised smaller cameras at least)

Canon is not stupid to kill their own cameras, this camera will lack both the internal processing power and the sensor dynamic range to shoot C-Log.
Even their C200 is 8-bit or RAW only.
This was exactly how it went with the RP when only the partial specs were disclosed and then they've found out what's actually the entry-level camera. It will be improved, but no way it's going to step on it's bigger brother's toes.

Would they scale it up to 3000$ and get less buyers because they are not looking at these specs? I don't think so.

People just love getting excited and then angrily disappointed.

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11 minutes ago, padam said:



People just love getting excited and then angrily disappointed.

True but i have a strange feeling the disappointment will be a fraction less this time.

I am considering getting an RP as a general photography camera (either that or an AF Sony portrait lens later this year).     Is the RP video THAT bad?

 

 

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8 minutes ago, noone said:

True but i have a strange feeling the disappointment will be a fraction less this time.

I am considering getting an RP as a general photography camera (either that or an AF Sony portrait lens later this year).     Is the RP video THAT bad?

 

 

Yes, it is still going to be a huge jump up overall, it just won't be nearly as unlocked as the R5 and some features won't be as good as the R.

Owned the RP for a short time, kept the R in the end but not because of image or video quality. If an RP came again at a low enough price, I would probably buy it, just to cheap for what it is, I use small rangefinder lenses and the weight is better suited to the RP and they look great with Canon colours.
1080p a little bit softer on the RP but still Ok, the RF 24-105/4L IS has excellent stabilisation and sharpness, works great for the RP.
The cropped 4k looks really great, if you can manage manual focusing and the really bad rolling shutter. It won't like high contrast situations, dynamic range not great but if the subject is exposed well, it looks pleasing.

So yes, not nearly as bad for video as some think it, the built-in picture profiles of all Canon cameras are known to be great, but I guess sharpness is generally overrated.

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