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Canon 1DX III, FF 4k60p with 422 10bit internal

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2 hours ago, Andrew Reid said:

What makes it better than the S1H?

The Canon badge?

Or is it the $6000 price?

Not sure, lets wait and see. But I am guessing IQ will be better for photo and video.  Also the native EF mount is pretty good for me as I have a shitload of EF glass and dont want to invest in a new mount (sony, panasonic, nikon..)

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EOSHD Pro Color for Sony cameras EOSHD Pro LOG for Sony CamerasEOSHD C-LOG and Film Profiles for All Canon DSLRs

Yeah best thing about the Canon ecosystem is obviously the EF range. Panasonic only has three lenses out for S1 (two F4 zooms & a 50mm!). The whole alliance thing is meh. Let's not even talk about autofocus performance or the monster sport photography specs. With internal RAW 4K the 1DX3 buries the S1H imho..

1DX3 Full Specs:

• New CMOS sensor
• New Digic processor
• New AF algorithm with deep learning
• New AF sensor
• 28x more resolution than the 1DX Mark II AF sensor
• Focus over a greater EV range
• Live View and movie AF with same algorithm as optical viewfinder system
• Dual Pixel CMOS AF
• 90 x 100% coverage
• 525 selectable AF areas
• New AF point selection control
• Illuminated buttons
• Dramatically improved battery life for LP-E19
• Better ISO performance
• 10-bit HEIF files
• 4K 60P
• 10-bit Canon Log
• Internal Raw video recording (once again, comes back to CFexpress)
• Optical finder continuous shooting 16fps AF + AE /
• Live View continuous 20fps AF + AE (with mechanical or electronic shutter)
• CFexpress storage
• 5x RAW burst depth vs 1DX Mark II
• Built-in Wi-Fi and Bluetooth (first time 1-series has built-in Wi-Fi)
• Built-in Bluetooth low energy
• Built-in ethernet transfer speed 2x fast as 1D X Mark II
• New optional wireless transmitter will be 2x as fast
• Weather resistant magnesium alloy body

 

With the C500 mkII & 1DX3 announcements, Canon is certainly hitting it out of the ballpark on the high-end. 

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20fps with the electronic shutter, will be interesting to see what rolling shutter is like, but that's a9 territory with DAPF. Add in the killer video specs - at least for now before we learn about all the gotcha's like crop and such - and this potentially makes for a killer photo/video combo. The same internals could be a monster "pro" Eos R that's been talked about. Whether Canon will cannibalize their flagship with a mirrorless body is another story. The number of high end R lenses being released gives one hope. But its still Canon.

Chris

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3 hours ago, Andrew Reid said:

What makes it better than the S1H?

The Canon badge?

Or is it the $6000 price?

Main positives re S1H:

1. Near-bullet-proof AF (Canon and Sony's video AF are coalescing in being as good as each other, only in slightly different ways)

2. Internal Raw (S1H raw will be external to Atomos)

Negatives re S1H:

1. No IBIS [though Canon are said to be working on IBIS for an EOSR (X) version - who knows when this will come - in combination with lens OIS and 'digital' stabilisation].  1DXIII will have no IBIS; I only make this footnote in respect of the likely EOS R equivalent of this DSLR.

2. Canon's Cinema raw lite (as per C200) is not a NLE-friendly codec; the ProRes Raw that will come from an S1H feeding a Ninja V (post the planned S1H ProRes raw upgrade) is likely to be much more pleasant to work with.

A couple of posters have asked about the crop in 4k.  Given that the 4k crop of the 1DX Mk.II is 1.3, we can be certain that the 1DX Mk.IV will have a crop of 1.3 or less - it would be so wantonly alien to Canon's modus operandi to do something so disruptive on their 'most pro' body like causing pros to have to buy a whole new set of lenses by switching from 1.3x in an existing model to (say the crazy) 1.74x of the EOS R/5DIV in the next version of that same model.

For me, the fascinating comparison - in terms of positioning - is with Sony.  The Panasonic S1H is a video-centric beast of wonder - very much the one-off space alien at the current time (and plaudits to Panasonic for producing such a model).  But where is Sony, the disruptor-in-chief or yore?  In the last 6 months they have produced new versions of their A9 and A7RIV cameras, both of which could have featured 10 bit (at least to a Ninja V) and more in terms of upgrades to the video specs.  Even if the compact dimensions of the A7 bodies meant that heat dissipation precluded internal 10 bit 4:2:2 at a decent bitrate, they could have provided this externally.  At the same time, the previously PR-savvy Sony let rumors run wild about the new cameras, such that the (real) improvements in other areas were overshadowed by the failure to provide even half of the expected video bit-depth, sub-sampling and bitrate improvements.

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29 minutes ago, Dirk Gently said:

 

2. Canon's Cinema raw lite (as per C200) is not a NLE-friendly codec; the ProRes Raw that will come from an S1H feeding a Ninja V (post the planned S1H ProRes raw upgrade) is likely to be much more pleasant to work with.

Actually it is quite the opposite. Canon Raw Lite is natively supported inside Davinci & Premiere (drag n drop) and FCPX via plug-in.

ProRes Raw is currently only supported by FCPX (with Avid & Premiere future support announced)

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2 minutes ago, Django said:

Actually it is quite the opposite. Canon Raw Lite is natively supported inside Davinci & Premiere (drag n drop) and FCPX via plug-in.

ProRes Raw is currently only supported by FCPX (with Avid & Premiere future support announced)

Perhaps I was not sufficiently clear when t I referred to the 'friendliness' of the codec.  Few have found Canon Cinema Raw Lite friendly to work with in the sense I intended, which is to say that it poses a heavy load on the processor and is not straightforward to grade (unlike the XFAVC codec produced by the C300 Mk.II, say, which most find very agreeable).  Of course, ProResRaw is too new to feature in any but Apple's own fcpx to date.  But it has been designed as a particularly friendly codec to work with.  I'd be very surprised if Apple didn't deliver on this promise (it's the sort of thing their good at).

Of course, this is no reflection on your own experience with Canon's Cinema raw lite - if you find it good n friendly then all well n good.

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I'm really looking forward to this new camera but knowing Canon it is better to wait before celebrating especially for the video part.

The biggest unknown:

- Raw video resolution, crop, fps and codec. Assuming that the Video Raw is true because is nowhere to be seen in the official press release
- 4k 60p crop or no crop and codec. Codec cannot be MJPG because I don't think it supports 10bit. 


Dream:
FF 6k Cinema Raw Lite 24,25,30 fps
FF 4k 60p 10bit 8:2:2 h264 or h265 derivative

Would still be very happy:
FF 4k Cinema Raw Lite 24,25,30 fps
<=1.6 crop 4k 60p 10bit 8:2:2 h264 or h265 derivative

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1 hour ago, Dirk Gently said:

A couple of posters have asked about the crop in 4k.  Given that the 4k crop of the 1DX Mk.II is 1.3, we can be certain that the 1DX Mk.IV will have a crop of 1.3 or less - it would be so wantonly alien to Canon's modus operandi to do something so disruptive on their 'most pro' body like causing pros to have to buy a whole new set of lenses by switching from 1.3x in an existing model to (say the crazy) 1.74x of the EOS R/5DIV in the next version of that same model.

From my understanding the crop on this cameras is determined by the sensors total resolution.. That's why there's a 1.8 crop on the 31mp EOS R and a 1.3 crop on the 20mp 1DX II. Isn't it? So if the rumors are true that the 1DX III will have a 28mp sensor and Videos are still recorded from a 4K "cut out" of that sensor, the crop will be bigger than on the 1DX II... But only if there still is no full sensor read out of course...  

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Yeah this has DPAF and internal RAW, which puts it above the S1H. It better have clog though ?

The price is high for hobbyist but for a working professional $6000 is no biggie for a one size fits all camera.

The other good thing is this will force Sony's hand into the game. 

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13 minutes ago, thebrothersthre3 said:

Yeah this has DPAF and internal RAW, which puts it above the S1H. It better have clog though ?

The price is high for hobbyist but for a working professional $6000 is no biggie for a one size fits all camera.

The other good thing is this will force Sony's hand into the game. 

Log is in the press release now which Log is another story...: "shoot 4K videos including 4K60p with 10-bit 4:2:2 Canon Log internal recording."

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6 minutes ago, Michi said:

From my understanding the crop on this cameras is determined by the sensors total resolution.. That's why there's a 1.8 crop on the 31mp EOS R and a 1.3 crop on the 20mp 1DX II. Isn't it? So if the rumors are true that the 1DX III will have a 28mp sensor and Videos are still recorded from a 4K "cut out" of that sensor, the crop will be bigger than on the 1DX II... But only if there still is no full sensor read out of course...  

This is apparently what Canon have done...  After all the complaints concerning the 1.74x crop in 4k when the EOS R was released, Canon admitted that that was the best they could do at the time - I have copied below a section from a Canon UK Q&A that sought to explain away the huge crop.  (They were limited to one-to-one pixel mapping, with a 4k 'cut out' from the middle of the sensor, as you rightly put it.)   But it appears that Canon have now advanced their tech to do away with a crop and in the larger 1DX form factor, which allows for much greater heat dissipation, at least if the reported Canon France version of the 1DXIII is reliable ( https://www.mac4ever.com/actu/147834_avec-l-eos-1d-x-mark-iii-canon-passe-a-l-heif-et-a-la-4kp60-10-bit-raw-interne-sans-crop ).  There is inevitably room for misunderstanding when details are being relayed via calls to groups of journalists in different countries, but I think it's fair to say that the 4k30 at least will have no or only a very modest crop (e.g. a crop that gives 1.5 times over-sampling from a 28MP sensor).  

 

"There's a lot of discussion online about the 'crop factor' when you shoot 4K video on EOS R. The lens's field of view is cropped by a factor of 1.74. So where the maximum 16:9 still image you can capture on the sensor is 6,720 x 3,776 pixels, the 4K video is a slice in the centre of that, 3,840 x 2,160 pixels. Let's be clear: this is 4K resolution, but the complaint is that this is not using the full field of view of the lens.

"This is down to the technical limitations of the sensor and the image processor. We could have tried to pursue full-frame 4K video capture, but it would take a lot of processing, for example, to scale and resample the capture, and this would risk causing the camera to overheat and shut down prematurely during video recording. We didn't want to risk that sort of instability. With the hardware we had available or in the pipeline, this is the best balance we can achieve at this time to deliver 4K capture."

source: https://www.canon.co.uk/pro/stories/eos-r-system-faqs/

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2 hours ago, Dirk Gently said:

Perhaps I was not sufficiently clear when t I referred to the 'friendliness' of the codec.  Few have found Canon Cinema Raw Lite friendly to work with in the sense I intended, which is to say that it poses a heavy load on the processor and is not straightforward to grade (unlike the XFAVC codec produced by the C300 Mk.II, say, which most find very agreeable).  Of course, ProResRaw is too new to feature in any but Apple's own fcpx to date.  But it has been designed as a particularly friendly codec to work with.  I'd be very surprised if Apple didn't deliver on this promise (it's the sort of thing their good at).

Of course, this is no reflection on your own experience with Canon's Cinema raw lite - if you find it good n friendly then all well n good.

I can't speak for ProResRaw but I can indeed speak of Canon Raw Lite.

I believe support/features were limited at first but as of Davinci 16.. Canon raw lite files are not only drag'n'drop but you get the RAW tab options as well (allowing full pre-bayer settings from WB, exposure to Log/Gamma etc directly from the NLE). It simply could not be any more "friendly" imho. Drag'n'Drop a CRM file, adjust Raw settings in real-time, edit & grade away. 

I'm on a 2016 MBP and I get zero hiccups while scrubbing/grading. Exporting in 4K is slow but probably not that much slower than any other RAW format. YMMV.

PS: I highly doubt ProRes Raw will get such support anytime soon in Davinci with the compressed raw wars going on behind the scenes.

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3 minutes ago, Dirk Gently said:

This is apparently what Canon have done...  After all the complaints concerning the 1.74x crop in 4k when the EOS R was released, Canon admitted that that was the best they could do at the time - I have copied below a section from a Canon UK Q&A that sought to explain away the huge crop.  (They were limited to one-to-one pixel mapping, with a 4k 'cut out' from the middle of the sensor, as you rightly put it.)   But it appears that Canon have now advanced their tech to do away with a crop and in the larger 1DX form factor, which allows for much greater heat dissipation, at least if the reported Canon France version of the 1DXIII is reliable ( https://www.mac4ever.com/actu/147834_avec-l-eos-1d-x-mark-iii-canon-passe-a-l-heif-et-a-la-4kp60-10-bit-raw-interne-sans-crop ).  There is inevitably room for misunderstanding when details are being relayed via calls to groups of journalists in different countries, but I think it's fair to say that the 4k30 at least will have no or only a very modest crop (e.g. a crop that gives 1.5 times over-sampling from a 28MP sensor).  

Hey, thanks for pointing to that french article. Interestingly they not only write of cropless recording but also of a 24mp sensor instead of 28mp. Either the Canon rep in france was more happy to talk than others or they mixed rumours with facts. 

Anyway, let‘s hope you are right and Canon managed to overcome the limitations forcing them to crop. 

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That French "article" is merely speculative and sources (or should is say extrapolates) the specs from a B&H announcement. It's an apple news website, not even photography related so I wouldn't put much trust into it..

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46 minutes ago, Django said:

I can't speak for ProResRaw but I can indeed speak of Canon Raw Lite.

I believe support/features were limited at first but as of Davinci 16.. Canon raw lite files are not only drag'n'drop but you get the RAW tab options as well (allowing full pre-bayer settings from WB, exposure to Log/Gamma etc directly from the NLE). It simply could not be any more "friendly" imho. Drag'n'Drop a CRM file, adjust Raw settings in real-time, edit & grade away. 

I'm on a 2016 MBP and I get zero hiccups while scrubbing/grading. Exporting in 4K is slow but probably not that much slower than any other RAW format. YMMV.

PS: I highly doubt ProRes Raw will get such support anytime soon in Davinci with the compressed raw wars going on behind the scenes.

Thanks indeed for your insights on this.  I'm happy to stand corrected on Canon's Cine Raw Lite, not least since it expands the number of  codecs in which I can be confident of shooting without causing any ripples in editing and grading.

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6 hours ago, Django said:

Yeah best thing about the Canon ecosystem is obviously the EF range. Panasonic only has three lenses out for S1 (two F4 zooms & a 50mm!). The whole alliance thing is meh. Let's not even talk about autofocus performance or the monster sport photography specs. With internal RAW 4K the 1DX3 buries the S1H imho..

1DX3 Full Specs:

• New CMOS sensor
• New Digic processor
• New AF algorithm with deep learning
• New AF sensor
• 28x more resolution than the 1DX Mark II AF sensor
• Focus over a greater EV range
• Live View and movie AF with same algorithm as optical viewfinder system
• Dual Pixel CMOS AF
• 90 x 100% coverage
• 525 selectable AF areas
• New AF point selection control
• Illuminated buttons
• Dramatically improved battery life for LP-E19
• Better ISO performance
• 10-bit HEIF files
• 4K 60P
• 10-bit Canon Log
• Internal Raw video recording (once again, comes back to CFexpress)
• Optical finder continuous shooting 16fps AF + AE /
• Live View continuous 20fps AF + AE (with mechanical or electronic shutter)
• CFexpress storage
• 5x RAW burst depth vs 1DX Mark II
• Built-in Wi-Fi and Bluetooth (first time 1-series has built-in Wi-Fi)
• Built-in Bluetooth low energy
• Built-in ethernet transfer speed 2x fast as 1D X Mark II
• New optional wireless transmitter will be 2x as fast
• Weather resistant magnesium alloy body

 

With the C500 mkII & 1DX3 announcements, Canon is certainly hitting it out of the ballpark on the high-end. 

Oh shit here we go! Pal there about 50 lenses available as we speak for L mount

https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/search?ci=17912&fct=fct_lens-mount_3442|leica-l-mount&N=4196380428

as for 1DX3 buries the S1H imho.. 

I own S1H and am not here to defend it but it BURIES your 1dxmiii ? the specs u listed for 2020 and price with no Cinema features like anamorphic or true Cinema 24p 

on other hand am really happy for canon shooters there finally getting 10bit internal in 2020 where is Panasonic shooters had it since 2017!

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25 minutes ago, Rinad Amir said:

Oh shit here we go! Pal there about 50 lenses available as we speak for L mount

https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/search?ci=17912&fct=fct_lens-mount_3442|leica-l-mount&N=4196380428

as for 1DX3 buries the S1H imho.. 

I own S1H and am not here to defend it but it BURIES your 1dxmiii ? the specs u listed for 2020 and price with no Cinema features like anamorphic or true Cinema 24p 

on other hand am really happy for canon shooters there finally getting 10bit internal in 2020 where is Panasonic shooters had it since 2017!

It definitely does for docu and run and gun shooters. Dual pixel becomes invaluable once you’ve tried it. Contrast AF isn’t reliable and too slow to be useable. 

Both cameras are built for different uses and shouldn’t be compared with each other. 

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I think its wrong to compare 1dxiii to S1h

Both different beasts 

For one S1H build for Cinema indi folks and 1Dxmiii for sports shooters wildlife action.

I got to agree with Django it does outpower S1H with autofocus but that's about it in my opinion it hasn't got 6k10bit nor exposure tools like scopes or articulating screen tele lamp or anamorphic mode IBIS?

@thebrothersthre3 how on earth is it compact?

Even Davealtizer from Kinotica mentioned in his video 5:35

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